Kerry Lost In Vietnam-Era Time Warp?

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 15:52:22 -0000, "D. Spencer Hines"

Presumably the worst attack one can make on a US politician is to
comment that he looks French. He can drown kittens as a hobby but to
look Gallic is just too much. This must be the fourth or so reference
to his appearance in articles posted by DSH, yet in all the video
footage I've seen there's not one striped T shirt, beret or even a
string of onions around his neck.

--

Julian Richards
julian-richards "at" ntlworld.com

Usenet is how from the comfort of your own living room, you can converse
with people that you would never want in your house.

Bill Case

2004-02-28 17:34:35 UTC

Why don't you do a favor for the internet. Instead of poluting it with your
chickenshit useless posts, climb into the toilet, reach up and pull down to
flush handle and head out to your proper new home. Show us what a man you
are by doing it right now, this instant.

Martin Reboul

2004-02-28 21:41:40 UTC

Post by Bill Case
Why don't you do a favor for the internet. Instead of poluting it with your
chickenshit useless posts, climb into the toilet, reach up and pull down to
flush handle and head out to your proper new home. Show us what a man you
are by doing it right now, this instant.

I doubt that David has learned how to use a lavatory yet - this has been
suggested many times before I'm afraid.

Bill Case

2004-03-04 15:58:31 UTC

What the hell is wrong with you?

The Sep. 11 attacks were easily avoidable through better airplane
security (locked secure cockpit doors, at least one pilot armed with a
handgun, armed air marshals on flights, etc).

There was also plenty of warning that something like that might
happen in terms of past highjackings and suicide bombings, intelligence buzz
etc.

The US security / intelligence agencies probably could have detected
and disrupted the plot if it wasn't for such bad management and info
sharing.

All these failings happened on Bush's watch. He had plenty of time
and authority to have made changes.

In addition, the post-war phase in Iraq has been bizarrely
mishandled and may wind up having created a worse security situation for the
US than existed before, with the loss of hundreds of US troops and thousands
of maimed personnel, enormous expenditures of taxpayer funds and alienated
former allies. Certainly, Bush's mishandling of Iraq has squandered
opportunities for gaining Arab / Moslem good will.

A lot of on-the-scene people in Iraq are asking where all the US
taxpayer money has been going - it's not particularly evident in terms of
the billions that have gone "somewhere". There are mounting allegations and
admissions of mis-spending and corruption by Halliburton and other firms
with administration ties.

And you think this guy has done a good job and deserves re-election?

BC

Post by D. Spencer Hines
"Reuters Imitates Us"
"You may have noticed that on occasion we make a joke about John Kerry's
habit of constantly reminding people that he served in Vietnam. We're
far from alone in this, of course; these days just about everyone enjoys
a laugh now and then at the expense of the haughty, French-looking
Massachusetts Democrat, who by the way served in Vietnam. But we may
have been the first; we were doing it as early as December 2002.
Anyway, now even Reuters is following our lead. Yesterday the "news"
service moved a nonstory about Kerry's reaction to "The Passion of the
Christ." He didn't have much of one, as he hadn't seen the movie. But
"The four-term senator from Massachusetts hasn't had much time to see
movies lately. He has been running for president virtually since the
beginning of last year.
In fact, the last movie he saw in a theater was another Mel Gibson flick
released in 2002 called "We Were Soldiers," set in Vietnam where Kerry
commanded a Navy Swift boat and was decorated for heroism."
We never saw "We Were Soldiers," but somehow we doubt it was about
Kerry, who was not a soldier but a naval officer. ******
Byron York of the Hill, however, reports there is a movie about Kerry's
Vietnam experience, produced and directed by John Kerry. York describes
"Kerry told reporter Charles Sennott the oft-repeated story of the
February 1969 firefight in which Kerry attacked the Viet Cong who
ambushed his Swift boat. . . .
The future senator was so "focused on his future ambitions," Sennott
reported, that he bought a Super-8 movie camera, returned to the scene,
and re-enacted the skirmish on film.
It was that film, transferred to videotape, that Kerry played for
Sennott.
"I'll show you where they shot from. See? That's the hole covered up
with reeds," Kerry said as he ran the tape in slow motion. . . .
Through hours of watching the films in the den of his newly renovated
Beacon Hill mansion, it becomes apparent that these are memories and
footage he returns to often," Sennott wrote."
York argues that Kerry is "stuck in a Vietnam-era time warp"; he even
plays ancient Jimi Hendrix tunes at campaign rallies. Sixty-year-old
Kerry "seems far older than, say, the 71-year-old Donald Rumsfeld -- a
man who is always moving ahead, not inclined to lecture about the way
things were 30 or 40 years ago.""
James Taranto
WSJ
DSH

Kevin Brooks

2004-03-04 18:27:17 UTC

The kind of "better security" that was the subject of debate under the
previous administration, but after the airline companies made some sizeable
campaign donations, were tabled by none other than then-VP Gore? "Gore
himself backed down on his commission's insistence that all bags be matched
to passengers on all flights. The day after he wrote the ATA about his
change of heart, campaign contributions started to pour in from the airlines
to various Democratic Party committees at double their previous pace." (
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20011029&s=sifry ) Or... "The
commission delayed immediate implementation of the plan...In all, the
airlines gave the Democratic Party $585,000 in the closing weeks of the 1996
election, twice what was given the Republican Party, according to an
analysis of contributions by the Center for Responsive Politics." (
cnn.com )

Post by Bill Case
There was also plenty of warning that something like that might
happen in terms of past highjackings and suicide bombings, intelligence buzz
etc.
The US security / intelligence agencies probably could have detected
and disrupted the plot if it wasn't for such bad management and info
sharing.

"Could have"...? It is amazing how many *expert* intelligence analysts who
are *oh so much more capable* than those professionals serving in the
various intel organizations, have come out of the woodwork of late,
especially in Usenet.

Post by Bill Case
All these failings happened on Bush's watch. He had plenty of time
and authority to have made changes.

Actually, all of the various shortcomings had been happening for years and
years..including throughout the entire Clinton administration. We got caught
flat-footed, but trying to lay the blame in Bush's lap (who had been in
office for a whoppingeight to nine *months* when 9-11 went down) is
ludicrous.

Post by Bill Case
In addition, the post-war phase in Iraq has been bizarrely
mishandled and may wind up having created a worse security situation for the
US than existed before, with the loss of hundreds of US troops and thousands
of maimed personnel, enormous expenditures of taxpayer funds and alienated
former allies. Certainly, Bush's mishandling of Iraq has squandered
opportunities for gaining Arab / Moslem good will.

Tell you what, you go out and "gain good will" (God only knows how when it
comes to the US in the Muslim world), while the rest of us root out any and
every threat we can find and stomp it flatter than a pancake, and we'll see
who ends up living in a safer environment when its all over, OK? And what
would YOUR plan be for Iraqi stabilization? Turn it over to the UN, so they
could do as good of a job as they did in Somalia?

Post by Bill Case
A lot of on-the-scene people in Iraq are asking where all the US
taxpayer money has been going - it's not particularly evident in terms of
the billions that have gone "somewhere". There are mounting allegations and
admissions of mis-spending and corruption by Halliburton and other firms
with administration ties.

Kind of figured it was about time for you to raise the "E-Vil Con-spear-see"
dogma... about on par with the rest of what you are trying to
(unsuccessfully) pass off as the product of rational thought. And who are
this lot of "on the scene people in Iraq", eh? Could you be a bit more
specific?

Post by Bill Case
And you think this guy has done a good job and deserves re-election?

Well, more so than the clown who repeatedly voted, and indeed served as sole
sponsor of legislation so intended, to virtually GUT the intelligence
budgets of those same organizations that you have decried as having so
miserably failed us. So I guess the simple anwer to that question of your's
would be, "Yep."

Brooks

<snip>

Bill Case

2004-03-04 20:00:35 UTC

It was on Bush's watch that it happened. He was just as lax in security
measures as the Democrats were, and has no right to claim any greater
stature than them in national security.

Post by Bill Case
There was also plenty of warning that something like that might
happen in terms of past highjackings and suicide bombings, intelligence

buzz

Post by Bill Case
etc.
The US security / intelligence agencies probably could have

detected

Post by Bill Case
and disrupted the plot if it wasn't for such bad management and info
sharing.

Bullshit. It's been well covered that there were strong leads prior to Sep
11. If you knew what you're talking about you would know about FBI agents
trying to report up the line about flight training for Arabs who didn't care
about learning to land etc. This occured on Bush's watch.

Post by Bill Case
All these failings happened on Bush's watch. He had plenty of time
and authority to have made changes.

No it isn't. not when he's trying to claim he's more to be relied upon than
the Demos in national security.

Post by Bill Case
In addition, the post-war phase in Iraq has been bizarrely
mishandled and may wind up having created a worse security situation for

the

Post by Bill Case
US than existed before, with the loss of hundreds of US troops and

thousands

Post by Bill Case
of maimed personnel, enormous expenditures of taxpayer funds and alienated
former allies. Certainly, Bush's mishandling of Iraq has squandered
opportunities for gaining Arab / Moslem good will.

You aren't stamping anything out jerkoff. Its troops like taking the risks,
just like I did in VN. The mis-handling of post war Iraq has and will create
more security problems for the US.

and

Post by Bill Case
admissions of mis-spending and corruption by Halliburton and other firms
with administration ties.

Kind of figured it was about time for you to raise the "E-Vil

Con-spear-see"

Post by Kevin Brooks
dogma... about on par with the rest of what you are trying to
(unsuccessfully) pass off as the product of rational thought. And who are
this lot of "on the scene people in Iraq", eh? Could you be a bit more
specific?

Read the papers idiot. A lot of money has been spent and the economy over
there is shambles, and security is in even worse condition.

Post by Bill Case
And you think this guy has done a good job and deserves re-election?

Bullshit. The CIA and FBI get 10's of billions in their budgets, and have
for years. They weren't gutted and nobody wanted them gutted. They're
bloated bureacracies that have almost no human intel and that's why the US
has been so exposed. Throwing money at them is stupid and won't improve
things.

Post by Kevin Brooks
Brooks
<snip>

Kevin Brooks

2004-03-04 20:33:34 UTC

Post by Bill Case
What the hell is wrong with you?
The Sep. 11 attacks were easily avoidable through better

airplane

Post by Bill Case
security (locked secure cockpit doors, at least one pilot armed with a
handgun, armed air marshals on flights, etc).

The kind of "better security" that was the subject of debate under the
previous administration, but after the airline companies made some

sizeable

Post by Kevin Brooks
campaign donations, were tabled by none other than then-VP Gore? "Gore
himself backed down on his commission's insistence that all bags be

matched

Post by Kevin Brooks
to passengers on all flights. The day after he wrote the ATA about his
change of heart, campaign contributions started to pour in from the

airlines

Post by Kevin Brooks
to various Democratic Party committees at double their previous pace." (
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20011029&s=sifry ) Or... "The
commission delayed immediate implementation of the plan...In all, the
airlines gave the Democratic Party $585,000 in the closing weeks of the

1996

Post by Kevin Brooks
election, twice what was given the Republican Party, according to an
analysis of contributions by the Center for Responsive Politics." (
cnn.com )

It was on Bush's watch that it happened.

Eight feakin' months. Get a grip on reality.

He was just as lax in security

Post by Bill Case
measures as the Democrats were, and has no right to claim any greater
stature than them in national security.

Sure he does. Unlike his predecessor, who had the opportunity to get OBL and
didn't, he has proved to be willing to address the problem head on. His
opponent in this race voted against participation in the FIRST Gulf War, for
cryin' out loud. He was the SOLE sponsor not once, but twice, of legislation
aimed at gutting the intelligence agencies--that NONE of his other
colleagues would join him, and that his legislation was defeated both times,
says something (though you may not be able to grasp what it is).

Post by Bill Case
There was also plenty of warning that something like that might
happen in terms of past highjackings and suicide bombings,

intelligence

Post by Kevin Brooks
buzz

Post by Bill Case
etc.
The US security / intelligence agencies probably could have

detected

Post by Bill Case
and disrupted the plot if it wasn't for such bad management and info
sharing.

Bullshit. It's been well covered that there were strong leads prior to Sep
11.

Do you know what Monday Morning Quarterbacking is?

If you knew what you're talking about you would know about FBI agents

Post by Bill Case
trying to report up the line about flight training for Arabs who didn't care
about learning to land etc. This occured on Bush's watch.

Blah, blah, blah. You got anything really important to inform us of? And do
you maybe have any idea of the number of raw intel leads the FBI and CIA
handle on a daily basis? No? Figures.

Post by Bill Case
All these failings happened on Bush's watch. He had plenty of

time

Post by Bill Case
and authority to have made changes.

Actually, all of the various shortcomings had been happening for years and
years..including throughout the entire Clinton administration. We got

caught

Post by Kevin Brooks
flat-footed, but trying to lay the blame in Bush's lap (who had been in
office for a whoppingeight to nine *months* when 9-11 went down) is
ludicrous.

No it isn't. not when he's trying to claim he's more to be relied upon than
the Demos in national security.

He is, so stop your whining. Eight months...versus eight years that nothing
was done about OBL, or airline security, or improving the capabilities of
the intel agencies.

Post by Bill Case
In addition, the post-war phase in Iraq has been bizarrely
mishandled and may wind up having created a worse security situation for

the

Post by Bill Case
US than existed before, with the loss of hundreds of US troops and

thousands

Post by Bill Case
of maimed personnel, enormous expenditures of taxpayer funds and

alienated

Post by Bill Case
former allies. Certainly, Bush's mishandling of Iraq has squandered
opportunities for gaining Arab / Moslem good will.

Tell you what, you go out and "gain good will" (God only knows how when it
comes to the US in the Muslim world), while the rest of us root out any

and

Post by Kevin Brooks
every threat we can find and stomp it flatter than a pancake, and we'll

see

Post by Kevin Brooks
who ends up living in a safer environment when its all over, OK? And what
would YOUR plan be for Iraqi stabilization? Turn it over to the UN, so

they

Post by Kevin Brooks
could do as good of a job as they did in Somalia?

You aren't stamping anything out jerkoff.

Oooh! I am gonna tell your mommie that you used a bad word! You may lose
your TV privileges for a week or two.

Post by Bill Case
Its troops like taking the risks,
just like I did in VN.

"Its troops like taking the risks"? OK....

The mis-handling of post war Iraq has and will create

Post by Bill Case
more security problems for the US.

Well, given the caliber of rantiong you have demonstrated so far, your
inability to assess the security environment now or to prognosticate about
what it will be next year is hardly surprising.

Post by Bill Case
A lot of on-the-scene people in Iraq are asking where all the

Post by Bill Case
taxpayer money has been going - it's not particularly evident in terms

Post by Bill Case
the billions that have gone "somewhere". There are mounting allegations

and

Post by Bill Case
admissions of mis-spending and corruption by Halliburton and other firms
with administration ties.

Kind of figured it was about time for you to raise the "E-Vil

Con-spear-see"

Read the papers idiot. A lot of money has been spent and the economy over
there is shambles, and security is in even worse condition.

So you can't give any specifics. Well, that's about par for you so far--big
on wind, small on facts. FYI, genius--their economy over there was a
shambles *before* we went into Iraq, or didn't ya know? And whose security
is in even worse shape? Seen any major attacks against homeland targets that
the rest of us have missed?

Post by Bill Case
And you think this guy has done a good job and deserves re-election?

Well, more so than the clown who repeatedly voted, and indeed served as

sole

Post by Kevin Brooks
sponsor of legislation so intended, to virtually GUT the intelligence
budgets of those same organizations that you have decried as having so
miserably failed us. So I guess the simple anwer to that question of

your's

Post by Kevin Brooks
would be, "Yep."

Bullshit. The CIA and FBI get 10's of billions in their budgets,

Which Kerry twice tried to dramatically cut. Yeah, that is one hell of an
ace security expert you are supporting there, huh? You are gonna hammer Bush
for failing to turn around in eight months an intel system he inherited from
his predecessor, but you are gonna bend over backwards to make excuses for
why ol' JFK II's efforts to gut samesaid agenciea was *really* the thing to
do... Did you forget to take your logic pill this morning, or what?

Brooks

<snip>

Martin Reboul

2004-03-04 21:26:34 UTC

Post by Bill Case
What the hell is wrong with you?
The Sep. 11 attacks were easily avoidable through better

airplane

Post by Bill Case
security (locked secure cockpit doors, at least one pilot armed with a
handgun, armed air marshals on flights, etc).

The kind of "better security" that was the subject of debate under the
previous administration, but after the airline companies made some

sizeable

Post by Kevin Brooks
campaign donations, were tabled by none other than then-VP Gore? "Gore
himself backed down on his commission's insistence that all bags be

matched

Post by Kevin Brooks
to passengers on all flights. The day after he wrote the ATA about his
change of heart, campaign contributions started to pour in from the

airlines

1996

Post by Kevin Brooks
election, twice what was given the Republican Party, according to an
analysis of contributions by the Center for Responsive Politics." (
cnn.com )

It was on Bush's watch that it happened.

Eight feakin' months. Get a grip on reality.

Eight feakin days should have been enough if he had his finger on the pulse,
his eye on the ball and had even the vaguest suspicion something was cooking.
(Sorry, I love mixed metaphors).

Post by Kevin Brooks
He was just as lax in security

Post by Bill Case
measures as the Democrats were, and has no right to claim any greater
stature than them in national security.

Sure he does. Unlike his predecessor, who had the opportunity to get OBL and
didn't, he has proved to be willing to address the problem head on.

I think not. OBL is still at large is he not?

Post by Kevin Brooks
His
opponent in this race voted against participation in the FIRST Gulf War, for
cryin' out loud. He was the SOLE sponsor not once, but twice, of legislation
aimed at gutting the intelligence agencies--that NONE of his other
colleagues would join him, and that his legislation was defeated both times,
says something (though you may not be able to grasp what it is).

The US intelligence agencies NEED cutting, streamlining and co-ordinating
desperately. They are obviously inneficient!

Post by Bill Case
There was also plenty of warning that something like that

might

Post by Bill Case
happen in terms of past highjackings and suicide bombings,

intelligence

Post by Kevin Brooks
buzz

Post by Bill Case
etc.
The US security / intelligence agencies probably could have

detected

Post by Bill Case
and disrupted the plot if it wasn't for such bad management and info
sharing.

"Could have"...? It is amazing how many *expert* intelligence analysts

who

Post by Kevin Brooks
are *oh so much more capable* than those professionals serving in the
various intel organizations, have come out of the woodwork of late,
especially in Usenet.

Bullshit. It's been well covered that there were strong leads prior to Sep
11.

Do you know what Monday Morning Quarterbacking is?

No, but I know what 'wise after the event' is.

Post by Kevin Brooks
If you knew what you're talking about you would know about FBI agents

Post by Bill Case
trying to report up the line about flight training for Arabs who didn't

care

Post by Bill Case
about learning to land etc. This occured on Bush's watch.

Blah, blah, blah. You got anything really important to inform us of? And do
you maybe have any idea of the number of raw intel leads the FBI and CIA
handle on a daily basis? No? Figures.

Nor do they I expect. They had quite enough to raise suspicion - the required
action was not taken.

Post by Bill Case
All these failings happened on Bush's watch. He had plenty of

time

Post by Bill Case
and authority to have made changes.

Actually, all of the various shortcomings had been happening for years

and

Post by Kevin Brooks
years..including throughout the entire Clinton administration. We got

caught

Post by Kevin Brooks
flat-footed, but trying to lay the blame in Bush's lap (who had been in
office for a whoppingeight to nine *months* when 9-11 went down) is
ludicrous.

No it isn't. not when he's trying to claim he's more to be relied upon

than

Post by Bill Case
the Demos in national security.

He is, so stop your whining. Eight months...versus eight years that nothing
was done about OBL, or airline security, or improving the capabilities of
the intel agencies.

In other words, when Bush swept into power he didn't get things moving and did
no better. Not good enough.

Post by Bill Case
In addition, the post-war phase in Iraq has been bizarrely
mishandled and may wind up having created a worse security situation

for

Post by Kevin Brooks
the

Post by Bill Case
US than existed before, with the loss of hundreds of US troops and

thousands

Post by Bill Case
of maimed personnel, enormous expenditures of taxpayer funds and

alienated

Post by Bill Case
former allies. Certainly, Bush's mishandling of Iraq has squandered
opportunities for gaining Arab / Moslem good will.

Tell you what, you go out and "gain good will" (God only knows how when

Post by Kevin Brooks
comes to the US in the Muslim world), while the rest of us root out any

and

Post by Kevin Brooks
every threat we can find and stomp it flatter than a pancake, and we'll

see

Post by Kevin Brooks
who ends up living in a safer environment when its all over, OK? And

what

Post by Kevin Brooks
would YOUR plan be for Iraqi stabilization? Turn it over to the UN, so

they

Post by Kevin Brooks
could do as good of a job as they did in Somalia?

You aren't stamping anything out jerkoff.

Oooh! I am gonna tell your mommie that you used a bad word! You may lose
your TV privileges for a week or two.

You missed the point didn't you Kevin?

Post by Bill Case
Its troops like taking the risks,
just like I did in VN.

"Its troops like taking the risks"? OK....
The mis-handling of post war Iraq has and will create

Post by Bill Case
more security problems for the US.

Well, given the caliber of rantiong you have demonstrated so far, your
inability to assess the security environment now or to prognosticate about
what it will be next year is hardly surprising.

Just like Mr Bush....

Post by Kevin Brooks
<snip>

Bill Case

2004-03-04 21:27:00 UTC

Which Kerry twice tried to dramatically cut. Yeah, that is one hell of an

Post by Kevin Brooks
ace security expert you are supporting there, huh? You are gonna hammer Bush
for failing to turn around in eight months an intel system he inherited from
his predecessor, but you are gonna bend over backwards to make excuses for
why ol' JFK II's efforts to gut samesaid agenciea was *really* the thing to
do... Did you forget to take your logic pill this morning, or what?

Try your weak crap on somebody else, little fellow.
The US's problem in security isn't that it spends too little. It has an over
bureaucratized system with no street smarts. That's why it couldn't respond
to info about ragheads training to fly, but not take off / land airliners
etc etc. That's also why they failed in their attempts to kill Saddam last
year and wound up killing a lot of innocent people instead.

You harp on Kerry "wanting to gut the CIA" etc. It's just phony right wing
bullshit, like most of the crap in your replies.

Kerry has at least two solid things going for in comparison to Bush. First,
he had the character not to shirk combat when his country was at war.
Second, the experience of being on the sharp edge of things teaches a person
to learn what really works and doesn't work in war. He's going to do very
well as President in improving US security, versus spending huge amounts of
money and phony posturing for Walter Mitty types like you.

Now why don't you just run along.

chebs

2004-03-04 23:52:38 UTC

Post by Bill Case
Kerry has at least two solid things going for in comparison to Bush. First,
he had the character not to shirk combat when his country was at war.
Second, the experience of being on the sharp edge of things teaches a person
to learn what really works and doesn't work in war. He's going to do very
well as President in improving US security, versus spending huge amounts of
money and phony posturing for Walter Mitty types like you.
Now why don't you just run along.

Ah yes. So EVERY American male who didn't serve at least five months in
combat in Vietnam from 1962 to 1973 is a shirker? That's a lot of
people you despise.
kwc

Bill Case

2004-03-05 03:04:07 UTC

Post by chebs

Ah yes. So EVERY American male who didn't serve at least five months in
combat in Vietnam from 1962 to 1973 is a shirker? That's a lot of
people you despise.
kwc

Pretty inane.

Kevin Brooks

2004-03-05 04:14:30 UTC

Post by Kevin Brooks
Which Kerry twice tried to dramatically cut. Yeah, that is one hell of an

Post by Kevin Brooks
ace security expert you are supporting there, huh? You are gonna hammer

Bush

Post by Kevin Brooks
for failing to turn around in eight months an intel system he inherited

from

Post by Kevin Brooks
his predecessor, but you are gonna bend over backwards to make excuses for
why ol' JFK II's efforts to gut samesaid agenciea was *really* the thing

Post by Kevin Brooks
do... Did you forget to take your logic pill this morning, or what?

Try your weak crap on somebody else, little fellow.
The US's problem in security isn't that it spends too little. It has an over
bureaucratized system with no street smarts. That's why it couldn't respond
to info about ragheads training to fly, but not take off / land airliners
etc etc. That's also why they failed in their attempts to kill Saddam last
year and wound up killing a lot of innocent people instead.
You harp on Kerry "wanting to gut the CIA" etc. It's just phony right wing
bullshit, like most of the crap in your replies.
Kerry has at least two solid things going for in comparison to Bush. First,
he had the character not to shirk combat when his country was at war.
Second, the experience of being on the sharp edge of things teaches a person
to learn what really works and doesn't work in war. He's going to do very
well as President in improving US security, versus spending huge amounts of
money and phony posturing for Walter Mitty types like you.
Now why don't you just run along.

Kevin Brooks

2004-03-05 04:26:01 UTC

Post by Kevin Brooks
Which Kerry twice tried to dramatically cut. Yeah, that is one hell of an

Post by Kevin Brooks
ace security expert you are supporting there, huh? You are gonna hammer

Bush

Post by Kevin Brooks
for failing to turn around in eight months an intel system he inherited

from

Post by Kevin Brooks
his predecessor, but you are gonna bend over backwards to make excuses for
why ol' JFK II's efforts to gut samesaid agenciea was *really* the thing

Post by Kevin Brooks
do... Did you forget to take your logic pill this morning, or what?

Try your weak crap on somebody else, little fellow.

Given the obvious difficulties you are having with simple concepts, "weak
crap" is all that is required.

Post by Kevin Brooks
The US's problem in security isn't that it spends too little. It has an over
bureaucratized system with no street smarts. That's why it couldn't respond
to info about ragheads training to fly, but not take off / land airliners
etc etc. That's also why they failed in their attempts to kill Saddam last
year and wound up killing a lot of innocent people instead.

In war shit happens. Intel is more of an art than a science. How many AQ
attacks against American targets did your little buddy Clinton endure,
without catching on? Was it four, or five? Took Bush one.

Post by Kevin Brooks
You harp on Kerry "wanting to gut the CIA" etc. It's just phony right wing
bullshit, like most of the crap in your replies.

No, it is a matter of public record that he did so. Twice. Even his fellow
senators would not join him--not a one.

Post by Kevin Brooks
Kerry has at least two solid things going for in comparison to Bush. First,
he had the character not to shirk combat when his country was at war.

Depends on how you read it. Using a loophole so he could DEROS after what,
four months? And return stateside so he could immediately start accusing his
fellow servicemembers of various assorted crimes and atrocities (second hand
info, of course, gained from attending the Winter Soldier event that ol' Ms.
Fonda hosted). And toss his medals away in protest...oops! That's right, NOW
he says they were "somebody else's medals"... it is oh-so-neat now for him
to display them, huh?

Post by Kevin Brooks
Second, the experience of being on the sharp edge of things teaches a person
to learn what really works and doesn't work in war. He's going to do very
well as President in improving US security, versus spending huge amounts of
money and phony posturing for Walter Mitty types like you.

But according to him, all he learned was how to commit atrocities. So what
good would he be?

Walter Mitty, eh? What, you think you are the only guy hereabouts who ever
served in the military?

Brooks

Post by Kevin Brooks
Now why don't you just run along.

Bill Case

2004-03-05 05:01:21 UTC

Post by Kevin Brooks
Which Kerry twice tried to dramatically cut. Yeah, that is one hell of an

Post by Kevin Brooks
ace security expert you are supporting there, huh? You are gonna hammer

Bush

Post by Kevin Brooks
for failing to turn around in eight months an intel system he inherited

from

Post by Kevin Brooks
his predecessor, but you are gonna bend over backwards to make excuses

for

Post by Kevin Brooks
why ol' JFK II's efforts to gut samesaid agenciea was *really* the thing

Post by Kevin Brooks
do... Did you forget to take your logic pill this morning, or what?

Try your weak crap on somebody else, little fellow.

Given the obvious difficulties you are having with simple concepts, "weak
crap" is all that is required.

Your concept is to support a rich kid shirker who never would have gootnen
anywhere near running for president if it wasn't for his family name. Like I
said, peddle your weak crap elsewhere.

Post by Kevin Brooks
The US's problem in security isn't that it spends too little. It has an

over

Post by Kevin Brooks
bureaucratized system with no street smarts. That's why it couldn't

respond

Post by Kevin Brooks
to info about ragheads training to fly, but not take off / land airliners
etc etc. That's also why they failed in their attempts to kill Saddam last
year and wound up killing a lot of innocent people instead.

You're a real hardass... sitting in safety being dismissive of women and
children getting killed and maimed from misdirected strikes. By the way, I
don't like Clinton, or his Republican mirror image, Bush. I was a Republican
for a long time until scumbags like Rove and company demonstrated what the
party was becoming.

Post by Kevin Brooks
You harp on Kerry "wanting to gut the CIA" etc. It's just phony right wing
bullshit, like most of the crap in your replies.

No, it is a matter of public record that he did so. Twice. Even his fellow
senators would not join him--not a one.

Post by Kevin Brooks
Kerry has at least two solid things going for in comparison to Bush.

First,

Post by Kevin Brooks
he had the character not to shirk combat when his country was at war.

I don't know how or why Kerry left VN on his second tour and I doubt that
you do either. Whatever, his record and decorations beat using family
connections to shirk war duty like Bush did. A lot of people who served and
fought over there came away with conflicted feelings about it.

Post by Kevin Brooks
Second, the experience of being on the sharp edge of things teaches a

person

Post by Kevin Brooks
to learn what really works and doesn't work in war. He's going to do very
well as President in improving US security, versus spending huge amounts

Post by Kevin Brooks
money and phony posturing for Walter Mitty types like you.

But according to him, all he learned was how to commit atrocities. So what
good would he be?

Again, bullshit.

Post by Kevin Brooks
Walter Mitty, eh? What, you think you are the only guy hereabouts who ever
served in the military?

Well, you just sound very half baked with the phoney tough guy stuff, what
can I say.

Post by Kevin Brooks
Brooks

Post by Kevin Brooks
Now why don't you just run along.

Kevin Brooks

2004-03-05 05:33:22 UTC

Post by Kevin Brooks
Which Kerry twice tried to dramatically cut. Yeah, that is one hell

Post by Kevin Brooks
an

Post by Kevin Brooks
ace security expert you are supporting there, huh? You are gonna

hammer

Post by Kevin Brooks
Bush

Post by Kevin Brooks
for failing to turn around in eight months an intel system he

inherited

Post by Kevin Brooks
from

Post by Kevin Brooks
his predecessor, but you are gonna bend over backwards to make excuses

for

Post by Kevin Brooks
why ol' JFK II's efforts to gut samesaid agenciea was *really* the

thing

Post by Kevin Brooks
to

Post by Kevin Brooks
do... Did you forget to take your logic pill this morning, or what?

Try your weak crap on somebody else, little fellow.

Given the obvious difficulties you are having with simple concepts, "weak
crap" is all that is required.

Your concept is to support a rich kid shirker who never would have gootnen
anywhere near running for president if it wasn't for his family name. Like I
said, peddle your weak crap elsewhere.

And JFK II was really just a kid off the streets, right? And Bush a
"shirker"? The same Bush who volunteered for Palace Alert duty? Who flew
single engine fighter jets that are well beyond your capability to even
comprehend, much less fly? And all of those poor ANG and ARNG personnel who
got called up in 1968, a good chunk of them finding themselves in Vietnam in
short order...were they "shirkers" too?

You are not the brightest bulb on the tree, are ya?

Post by Kevin Brooks
The US's problem in security isn't that it spends too little. It has an

over

Post by Kevin Brooks
bureaucratized system with no street smarts. That's why it couldn't

respond

Post by Kevin Brooks
to info about ragheads training to fly, but not take off / land

airliners

Post by Kevin Brooks
etc etc. That's also why they failed in their attempts to kill Saddam

last

Post by Kevin Brooks
year and wound up killing a lot of innocent people instead.

Oh, I did my share of time sitting in miserable conditions playing my little
part in that whole pointy-end-of-the-spear thingie. And yes, collateral
damage and resultant casualties will occur in wars--despite the fact that we
did everything we could to prevent them. rememeber that little AH-64 deep
attack mission that got so much press for sustaining such damage? It went in
without the usual SEAD package--why, you ask? Because there were too many
civies along the ingress route and the commander on the ground decided that
SEAD fires would likely kill too many of them. Idiot.

Post by Kevin Brooks
You harp on Kerry "wanting to gut the CIA" etc. It's just phony right

wing

Post by Kevin Brooks
bullshit, like most of the crap in your replies.

No, it is a matter of public record that he did so. Twice. Even his fellow
senators would not join him--not a one.

Oooh, no snappy (and false) replies to that one this time?

Post by Kevin Brooks
Kerry has at least two solid things going for in comparison to Bush.

First,

Post by Kevin Brooks
he had the character not to shirk combat when his country was at war.

Depends on how you read it. Using a loophole so he could DEROS after what,
four months? And return stateside so he could immediately start accusing

his

Post by Kevin Brooks
fellow servicemembers of various assorted crimes and atrocities (second

hand

Post by Kevin Brooks
info, of course, gained from attending the Winter Soldier event that ol'

Ms.

Post by Kevin Brooks
Fonda hosted). And toss his medals away in protest...oops! That's right,

NOW

Post by Kevin Brooks
he says they were "somebody else's medals"... it is oh-so-neat now for him
to display them, huh?

I don't know how or why Kerry left VN on his second tour

Second tour? LOL! I was not aware he ever set foot in, or flew over, or even
really approached the shoreline of, Vietnam during his first tour.

and I doubt that

Post by Kevin Brooks
you do either.

Yes, I do, Because he knew about the little used "three wounds and your on
your way home" policy the Navy had...which might explain those two curious
"wounds" with no lost duty days.

Whatever, his record and decorations beat using family

Post by Kevin Brooks
connections to shirk war duty like Bush did. A lot of people who served and
fought over there came away with conflicted feelings about it.

Shirk = National Guard duty, huh? Again, Palace Alert, the '68
mobilizations... not a very good definition of "shirker" you have there.

Post by Kevin Brooks
Second, the experience of being on the sharp edge of things teaches a

person

Post by Kevin Brooks
to learn what really works and doesn't work in war. He's going to do

very

Post by Kevin Brooks
well as President in improving US security, versus spending huge amounts

Post by Kevin Brooks
money and phony posturing for Walter Mitty types like you.

But according to him, all he learned was how to commit atrocities. So what
good would he be?

Again, bullshit.

What, you think he did NOT accuse US troops of widespread, commonplace
atrocities? What planet have YOU been on lately? He even appeared on "Meet
The Press" to discuss his accusations, accompanied by another Vietnam combat
vet...ooops! Turns out the other guy was a phoney who had a creative mind
when it came to where/how he served.

Hey, where are your Walter Mitty claims?

Brooks

Bill Case

2004-03-05 06:22:31 UTC

Post by Bill Case
Your concept is to support a rich kid shirker who never would have gootnen
anywhere near running for president if it wasn't for his family name.

Post by Bill Case
said, peddle your weak crap elsewhere.

You have a lot loose crap flying around in your head. JFK blah blah blah.
Single engine fightrers I can't "comprehend" --- hhahahaha. And HE wasn't
called up you fool.
It's coming to me now - you're a nitwit. Haha

Post by Kevin Brooks
You are not the brightest bulb on the tree, are ya?

Hah. A lot brighter and more stable than you are nitwit.

Post by Kevin Brooks
In war shit happens. Intel is more of an art than a science. How many AQ
attacks against American targets did your little buddy Clinton endure,
without catching on? Was it four, or five? Took Bush one.

You're a real hardass... sitting in safety being dismissive of women and
children getting killed and maimed from misdirected strikes. By the

way,

Post by Bill Case
don't like Clinton, or his Republican mirror image, Bush. I was a

Republican

Post by Bill Case
for a long time until scumbags like Rove and company demonstrated what the
party was becoming.

There's a jabering idiot in this discussion, but its not me pal. You sound
hysterical.

Post by Bill Case
I don't know how or why Kerry left VN on his second tour

Second tour? LOL! I was not aware he ever set foot in, or flew over, or even
really approached the shoreline of, Vietnam during his first tour.
and I doubt that

Post by Bill Case
you do either.

Yes, I do, Because he knew about the little used "three wounds and your on
your way home" policy the Navy had...which might explain those two curious
"wounds" with no lost duty days.

Little used? Bullshit you nitwit. That shows the extent of you knowledge.
All services had a 3 wounds and out policy.

Post by Kevin Brooks
Whatever, his record and decorations beat using family

Post by Bill Case
connections to shirk war duty like Bush did. A lot of people who served

and

Post by Bill Case
fought over there came away with conflicted feelings about it.

Shirk = National Guard duty, huh? Again, Palace Alert, the '68
mobilizations... not a very good definition of "shirker" you have there.

You're a clown. Missing meetings, not taking flight physicals and losing
flight status, there are a lot of issues regarding his service and everyone
knows it.

Post by Bill Case
Second, the experience of being on the sharp edge of things teaches a

person

Post by Bill Case
to learn what really works and doesn't work in war. He's going to do

very

Post by Bill Case
well as President in improving US security, versus spending huge

amounts

Post by Bill Case
money and phony posturing for Walter Mitty types like you.

But according to him, all he learned was how to commit atrocities. So

what

Post by Kevin Brooks
good would he be?

Again, bullshit.

He's also got circle of people he served in combat with. As I said, a lot of
people who saw action in that war came away with mixed feelings

Post by Kevin Brooks
Hey, where are your Walter Mitty claims?

Even more alive and well than before. Take your hysteria elsewhere nitwit.
Is this all you have to do, dashing off acronymed psuedo-authorative
bullshit in newsgroups?

Kevin Brooks

2004-03-05 14:42:54 UTC

Post by Bill Case
Your concept is to support a rich kid shirker who never would have

gootnen

Post by Bill Case
anywhere near running for president if it wasn't for his family name.

Post by Bill Case
said, peddle your weak crap elsewhere.

who

Post by Kevin Brooks
got called up in 1968, a good chunk of them finding themselves in

Vietnam

Post by Kevin Brooks
short order...were they "shirkers" too?

Answer the question. Were they also "shirkers"? What, can't bring yourself
to answer that one?

Post by Kevin Brooks
You are not the brightest bulb on the tree, are ya?

Hah. A lot brighter and more stable than you are nitwit.

The evidence indicates otherwise. Be honest--you were not even aware of the
'68 mobilization and subsequent service in Vietnam of both ARNG and ANG
units, were you?

Post by Kevin Brooks
In war shit happens. Intel is more of an art than a science. How

many

Post by Kevin Brooks
attacks against American targets did your little buddy Clinton endure,
without catching on? Was it four, or five? Took Bush one.

You're a real hardass... sitting in safety being dismissive of women and
children getting killed and maimed from misdirected strikes. By the

way,

Post by Bill Case
don't like Clinton, or his Republican mirror image, Bush. I was a

Republican

Post by Bill Case
for a long time until scumbags like Rove and company demonstrated what

the

Post by Bill Case
party was becoming.

Oh, I did my share of time sitting in miserable conditions playing my

little

Post by Kevin Brooks
part in that whole pointy-end-of-the-spear thingie. And yes, collateral
damage and resultant casualties will occur in wars--despite the fact

that

Post by Kevin Brooks
did everything we could to prevent them. rememeber that little AH-64 deep
attack mission that got so much press for sustaining such damage? It

went

Post by Kevin Brooks
without the usual SEAD package--why, you ask? Because there were too many
civies along the ingress route and the commander on the ground decided

that

Post by Kevin Brooks
SEAD fires would likely kill too many of them. Idiot.

There's a jabering idiot in this discussion, but its not me pal. You sound
hysterical.

So much for your ability to face facts.

Post by Bill Case
I don't know how or why Kerry left VN on his second tour

Second tour? LOL! I was not aware he ever set foot in, or flew over, or

even

Post by Kevin Brooks
really approached the shoreline of, Vietnam during his first tour.
and I doubt that

Post by Bill Case
you do either.

Yes, I do, Because he knew about the little used "three wounds and your on
your way home" policy the Navy had...which might explain those two curious
"wounds" with no lost duty days.

Little used? Bullshit you nitwit. That shows the extent of you knowledge.
All services had a 3 wounds and out policy.

But he was in the Navy--how many Navy vets took advantage of that little
loophole?

Post by Kevin Brooks
Whatever, his record and decorations beat using family

Post by Bill Case
connections to shirk war duty like Bush did. A lot of people who served

and

Post by Bill Case
fought over there came away with conflicted feelings about it.

Shirk = National Guard duty, huh? Again, Palace Alert, the '68
mobilizations... not a very good definition of "shirker" you have there.

You're a clown. Missing meetings, not taking flight physicals and losing
flight status, there are a lot of issues regarding his service and everyone
knows it.

Uhmmm. National Guard service does not equal "shirker"; the 23,000 ANG/ARNG
personnel activated in '68 bear witness to that. Bush did indeed volunteer
for Palace Alert. By the time he took that job in Alabama and began
"splitting-out" (not "missing meetings"--what he did was actually
"Equivalent Training", in Guard parlance) the US effort in Vietnam was on
the rails bound for Vietnamization, and his unit had lost its ADC alert
mission in favor of a training role that he was really not qualified for due
to inexperience. He did his time, got his honorable discharge. Yep, sounds
like he did his part to me.

Post by Bill Case
Second, the experience of being on the sharp edge of things

teaches

Post by Kevin Brooks
person

Post by Bill Case
to learn what really works and doesn't work in war. He's going to do

very

Post by Bill Case
well as President in improving US security, versus spending huge

amounts

Post by Bill Case
money and phony posturing for Walter Mitty types like you.

But according to him, all he learned was how to commit atrocities. So

what

Post by Kevin Brooks
good would he be?

Again, bullshit.

combat

Post by Kevin Brooks
vet...ooops! Turns out the other guy was a phoney who had a creative mind
when it came to where/how he served.

He's also got circle of people he served in combat with. As I said, a lot of
people who saw action in that war came away with mixed feelings

Gee, how amazing--folks wanting to be associated with a genuine presidential
contender! Who'd have thunk it? A lot of Vietnam vets have also come down
hard on him for breaking faith with his fellow servicemembers--not
necessarily because he opposed the war, but because he parroted that
ridiculous "Winter Soldier Investigation" crap regarding widespread
atrocities and crimes. Oddly enough, subsequent investigation into those WSI
claims revealed no evidence to support them (some personnel who allegedly
"testified" even denied being there, leaving one wondering *who* did the
actual "testifying"). And yes, Kerry's VVAW sidekick during that 1971 "Meet
the Press" interview did indeed turn out to have not been what he claimed to
be, namely a Vietnam combat vet.

Post by Kevin Brooks
Hey, where are your Walter Mitty claims?

Even more alive and well than before. Take your hysteria elsewhere nitwit.
Is this all you have to do, dashing off acronymed psuedo-authorative
bullshit in newsgroups?

Gee, at least the claims I have made are fact-based--what about your flights
of fancy? And what is the story here? All of a sudden you are backing down
from that "dick measuring" contest in regards to military experience?

Brooks

Bill Case

2004-03-05 19:07:34 UTC

You go on and on with this rubbish. The fact remains Kerry volunteered his
way into a dangerous job, Swift river boats, and has a circle of service
friends who were in action with him who back him up as a good man in action.
[People who are reading this might want to take a look at Douglass
Brinckley's biography of him (I have not read it yet).]

Bush has what? He used his elitist family ties to get into a unit that had
little chance of being sent to combat, then he misses a flight physical that
takes him out of flight status, effectively eliminating any chance of seeing
action, and few people can even remember him attending meetings.

Bush is known for pulling scummy tricks on opponents. Ex-pow Senator McCane
smeared in phone calls as having a black kid (I think they adopted an Asian
child) in the last hours before an election in the south. Senator Clelend, a
triple combat amputee smeared as unpatriotic in an election.

Why should anyone give credibility to your attempts to smear Kerry's war
record? Isn't it highly consistent with the well known scummy mode of
operation of Bush and company? Do you have any character at all? What are
your motives?

People reading this might want to consider the nature and pattern of these
types of attacks on men who actually did risk their lives in serving their
country, by this type of people in making their voting decisions.

BC

Post by Bill Case
Your concept is to support a rich kid shirker who never would have

gootnen

Post by Bill Case
anywhere near running for president if it wasn't for his family name.

Post by Bill Case
said, peddle your weak crap elsewhere.

who

Post by Kevin Brooks
got called up in 1968, a good chunk of them finding themselves in

Vietnam

Post by Kevin Brooks
short order...were they "shirkers" too?

Answer the question. Were they also "shirkers"? What, can't bring yourself
to answer that one?

Post by Kevin Brooks
You are not the brightest bulb on the tree, are ya?

Hah. A lot brighter and more stable than you are nitwit.

The evidence indicates otherwise. Be honest--you were not even aware of the
'68 mobilization and subsequent service in Vietnam of both ARNG and ANG
units, were you?

Post by Kevin Brooks
In war shit happens. Intel is more of an art than a science. How

many

Post by Kevin Brooks
attacks against American targets did your little buddy Clinton

endure,

Post by Kevin Brooks
without catching on? Was it four, or five? Took Bush one.

You're a real hardass... sitting in safety being dismissive of women

and

Post by Bill Case
children getting killed and maimed from misdirected strikes. By the

way,

Post by Bill Case
don't like Clinton, or his Republican mirror image, Bush. I was a

Republican

Post by Bill Case
for a long time until scumbags like Rove and company demonstrated what

the

Post by Bill Case
party was becoming.

Oh, I did my share of time sitting in miserable conditions playing my

little

Post by Kevin Brooks
part in that whole pointy-end-of-the-spear thingie. And yes, collateral
damage and resultant casualties will occur in wars--despite the fact

that

Post by Kevin Brooks
did everything we could to prevent them. rememeber that little AH-64

deep

Post by Kevin Brooks
attack mission that got so much press for sustaining such damage? It

went

Post by Kevin Brooks
without the usual SEAD package--why, you ask? Because there were too

many

Post by Kevin Brooks
civies along the ingress route and the commander on the ground decided

that

Post by Kevin Brooks
SEAD fires would likely kill too many of them. Idiot.

There's a jabering idiot in this discussion, but its not me pal. You sound
hysterical.

So much for your ability to face facts.

Post by Bill Case
I don't know how or why Kerry left VN on his second tour

Second tour? LOL! I was not aware he ever set foot in, or flew over, or

even

Post by Kevin Brooks
really approached the shoreline of, Vietnam during his first tour.
and I doubt that

Post by Bill Case
you do either.

Yes, I do, Because he knew about the little used "three wounds and

your

Post by D. Spencer Hines
on

Post by Kevin Brooks
your way home" policy the Navy had...which might explain those two

curious

Post by Kevin Brooks
"wounds" with no lost duty days.

Little used? Bullshit you nitwit. That shows the extent of you knowledge.
All services had a 3 wounds and out policy.

But he was in the Navy--how many Navy vets took advantage of that little
loophole?

Post by Kevin Brooks
Whatever, his record and decorations beat using family

Post by Bill Case
connections to shirk war duty like Bush did. A lot of people who

served

Post by Kevin Brooks
and

Post by Bill Case
fought over there came away with conflicted feelings about it.

Shirk = National Guard duty, huh? Again, Palace Alert, the '68
mobilizations... not a very good definition of "shirker" you have there.

You're a clown. Missing meetings, not taking flight physicals and losing
flight status, there are a lot of issues regarding his service and

everyone

Post by Bill Case
knows it.

Post by Bill Case
Second, the experience of being on the sharp edge of things

teaches

Post by Kevin Brooks
person

Post by Bill Case
to learn what really works and doesn't work in war. He's going

Post by D. Spencer Hines
do

Post by Bill Case
very

Post by Bill Case
well as President in improving US security, versus spending huge

amounts

Post by Bill Case
money and phony posturing for Walter Mitty types like you.

But according to him, all he learned was how to commit atrocities.

Post by Kevin Brooks
what

Post by Kevin Brooks
good would he be?

Again, bullshit.

What, you think he did NOT accuse US troops of widespread, commonplace
atrocities? What planet have YOU been on lately? He even appeared on

"Meet

Post by Kevin Brooks
The Press" to discuss his accusations, accompanied by another Vietnam

combat

Post by Kevin Brooks
vet...ooops! Turns out the other guy was a phoney who had a creative

mind

Post by Kevin Brooks
when it came to where/how he served.

He's also got circle of people he served in combat with. As I said, a

lot

Post by D. Spencer Hines
of

Post by Bill Case
people who saw action in that war came away with mixed feelings

Post by Kevin Brooks
Hey, where are your Walter Mitty claims?

Even more alive and well than before. Take your hysteria elsewhere

nitwit.

Post by Bill Case
Is this all you have to do, dashing off acronymed psuedo-authorative
bullshit in newsgroups?

Kevin Brooks

2004-03-05 20:49:16 UTC

Post by Bill Case
You go on and on with this rubbish. The fact remains Kerry volunteered his
way into a dangerous job, Swift river boats, and has a circle of service
friends who were in action with him who back him up as a good man in action.
[People who are reading this might want to take a look at Douglass
Brinckley's biography of him (I have not read it yet).]
Bush has what? He used his elitist family ties to get into a unit that had
little chance of being sent to combat, then he misses a flight physical that
takes him out of flight status, effectively eliminating any chance of seeing
action, and few people can even remember him attending meetings.
Bush is known for pulling scummy tricks on opponents. Ex-pow Senator McCane
smeared in phone calls as having a black kid (I think they adopted an Asian
child) in the last hours before an election in the south. Senator Clelend, a
triple combat amputee smeared as unpatriotic in an election.
Why should anyone give credibility to your attempts to smear Kerry's war
record? Isn't it highly consistent with the well known scummy mode of
operation of Bush and company? Do you have any character at all? What are
your motives?
People reading this might want to consider the nature and pattern of these
types of attacks on men who actually did risk their lives in serving their
country, by this type of people in making their voting decisions.
BC

He says, running away...couldn't bring yourself to answer that question
about Guard = shirker, huh? And it appears your cliam aginst Bush vice
McCane, etc., are the subject of a rather fermented imagination. When you
feel up to finally confronting that question about Guard duty equalling
shirking, get back to me. Other than that, enjoy your next four years under
Bush.

Brooks

Post by Bill Case
Your concept is to support a rich kid shirker who never would have

gootnen

Post by Bill Case
anywhere near running for president if it wasn't for his family

name.

Post by Bill Case
Like

Post by Bill Case
said, peddle your weak crap elsewhere.

And JFK II was really just a kid off the streets, right? And Bush a
"shirker"? The same Bush who volunteered for Palace Alert duty? Who

flew

Post by Kevin Brooks
single engine fighter jets that are well beyond your capability to

even

Post by Kevin Brooks
comprehend, much less fly? And all of those poor ANG and ARNG

personnel

Post by Bill Case
who

Post by Kevin Brooks
got called up in 1968, a good chunk of them finding themselves in

Vietnam

Post by Kevin Brooks
short order...were they "shirkers" too?

You have a lot loose crap flying around in your head. JFK blah blah

blah.

Post by Bill Case
Single engine fightrers I can't "comprehend" --- hhahahaha. And HE

wasn't

Post by Bill Case
called up you fool.
It's coming to me now - you're a nitwit. Haha

Answer the question. Were they also "shirkers"? What, can't bring yourself
to answer that one?

Post by Kevin Brooks
You are not the brightest bulb on the tree, are ya?

Hah. A lot brighter and more stable than you are nitwit.

The evidence indicates otherwise. Be honest--you were not even aware of

the

Post by D. Spencer Hines
'68 mobilization and subsequent service in Vietnam of both ARNG and ANG
units, were you?

Post by Kevin Brooks
In war shit happens. Intel is more of an art than a science. How

many

Post by Kevin Brooks
attacks against American targets did your little buddy Clinton

endure,

Post by Kevin Brooks
without catching on? Was it four, or five? Took Bush one.

You're a real hardass... sitting in safety being dismissive of women

and

Post by Bill Case
children getting killed and maimed from misdirected strikes. By the

way,

Post by Bill Case
don't like Clinton, or his Republican mirror image, Bush. I was a

Republican

Post by Bill Case
for a long time until scumbags like Rove and company demonstrated

what

Post by Bill Case
the

Post by Bill Case
party was becoming.

Oh, I did my share of time sitting in miserable conditions playing my

little

Post by Kevin Brooks
part in that whole pointy-end-of-the-spear thingie. And yes,

collateral

Post by Kevin Brooks
damage and resultant casualties will occur in wars--despite the fact

that

Post by Kevin Brooks
did everything we could to prevent them. rememeber that little AH-64

deep

Post by Kevin Brooks
attack mission that got so much press for sustaining such damage? It

went

Post by Kevin Brooks
without the usual SEAD package--why, you ask? Because there were too

many

Post by Kevin Brooks
civies along the ingress route and the commander on the ground decided

that

Post by Kevin Brooks
SEAD fires would likely kill too many of them. Idiot.

There's a jabering idiot in this discussion, but its not me pal. You

sound

Post by Bill Case
hysterical.

So much for your ability to face facts.

Post by Bill Case
I don't know how or why Kerry left VN on his second tour

Second tour? LOL! I was not aware he ever set foot in, or flew over,

Post by Bill Case
even

Post by Kevin Brooks
really approached the shoreline of, Vietnam during his first tour.
and I doubt that

Post by Bill Case
you do either.

Yes, I do, Because he knew about the little used "three wounds and

your

Post by D. Spencer Hines
on

Post by Kevin Brooks
your way home" policy the Navy had...which might explain those two

curious

Post by Kevin Brooks
"wounds" with no lost duty days.

Little used? Bullshit you nitwit. That shows the extent of you

knowledge.

Post by Bill Case
All services had a 3 wounds and out policy.

But he was in the Navy--how many Navy vets took advantage of that little
loophole?

Post by Kevin Brooks
Whatever, his record and decorations beat using family

Post by Bill Case
connections to shirk war duty like Bush did. A lot of people who

served

Post by Kevin Brooks
and

Post by Bill Case
fought over there came away with conflicted feelings about it.

Shirk = National Guard duty, huh? Again, Palace Alert, the '68
mobilizations... not a very good definition of "shirker" you have

there.

Post by Bill Case
You're a clown. Missing meetings, not taking flight physicals and

losing

Post by Bill Case
flight status, there are a lot of issues regarding his service and

everyone

Post by Bill Case
knows it.

Uhmmm. National Guard service does not equal "shirker"; the 23,000

ANG/ARNG

Post by D. Spencer Hines
personnel activated in '68 bear witness to that. Bush did indeed volunteer
for Palace Alert. By the time he took that job in Alabama and began
"splitting-out" (not "missing meetings"--what he did was actually
"Equivalent Training", in Guard parlance) the US effort in Vietnam was on
the rails bound for Vietnamization, and his unit had lost its ADC alert
mission in favor of a training role that he was really not qualified for

due

Post by D. Spencer Hines
to inexperience. He did his time, got his honorable discharge. Yep, sounds
like he did his part to me.

Post by Bill Case
Second, the experience of being on the sharp edge of things

teaches

Post by Kevin Brooks
person

Post by Bill Case
to learn what really works and doesn't work in war. He's going

Post by D. Spencer Hines
do

Post by Bill Case
very

Post by Bill Case
well as President in improving US security, versus spending huge

amounts

Post by Bill Case
money and phony posturing for Walter Mitty types like you.

But according to him, all he learned was how to commit atrocities.

Post by Kevin Brooks
what

Post by Kevin Brooks
good would he be?

Again, bullshit.

What, you think he did NOT accuse US troops of widespread, commonplace
atrocities? What planet have YOU been on lately? He even appeared on

"Meet

Post by Kevin Brooks
The Press" to discuss his accusations, accompanied by another Vietnam

combat

Post by Kevin Brooks
vet...ooops! Turns out the other guy was a phoney who had a creative

mind

Post by Kevin Brooks
when it came to where/how he served.

He's also got circle of people he served in combat with. As I said, a

lot

Post by D. Spencer Hines
of

Post by Bill Case
people who saw action in that war came away with mixed feelings

Gee, how amazing--folks wanting to be associated with a genuine

presidential

Post by D. Spencer Hines
contender! Who'd have thunk it? A lot of Vietnam vets have also come down
hard on him for breaking faith with his fellow servicemembers--not
necessarily because he opposed the war, but because he parroted that
ridiculous "Winter Soldier Investigation" crap regarding widespread
atrocities and crimes. Oddly enough, subsequent investigation into those

WSI

Post by D. Spencer Hines
claims revealed no evidence to support them (some personnel who allegedly
"testified" even denied being there, leaving one wondering *who* did the
actual "testifying"). And yes, Kerry's VVAW sidekick during that 1971

"Meet

Post by D. Spencer Hines
the Press" interview did indeed turn out to have not been what he

claimed

Post by Bill Case
to

Post by D. Spencer Hines
be, namely a Vietnam combat vet.

Post by Kevin Brooks
Hey, where are your Walter Mitty claims?

Even more alive and well than before. Take your hysteria elsewhere

nitwit.

Post by Bill Case
Is this all you have to do, dashing off acronymed psuedo-authorative
bullshit in newsgroups?

Gee, at least the claims I have made are fact-based--what about your

flights

Post by D. Spencer Hines
of fancy? And what is the story here? All of a sudden you are backing down
from that "dick measuring" contest in regards to military experience?
Brooks

Bill Case

2004-03-06 00:30:16 UTC

action.

Post by Bill Case
[People who are reading this might want to take a look at Douglass
Brinckley's biography of him (I have not read it yet).]
Bush has what? He used his elitist family ties to get into a unit that had
little chance of being sent to combat, then he misses a flight physical

that

Post by Bill Case
takes him out of flight status, effectively eliminating any chance of

seeing

Post by Bill Case
action, and few people can even remember him attending meetings.
Bush is known for pulling scummy tricks on opponents. Ex-pow Senator

McCane

Post by Bill Case
smeared in phone calls as having a black kid (I think they adopted an

Asian

Post by Bill Case
child) in the last hours before an election in the south. Senator

Clelend,

Post by Bill Case
triple combat amputee smeared as unpatriotic in an election.
Why should anyone give credibility to your attempts to smear Kerry's war
record? Isn't it highly consistent with the well known scummy mode of
operation of Bush and company? Do you have any character at all? What are
your motives?
People reading this might want to consider the nature and pattern of these
types of attacks on men who actually did risk their lives in serving their
country, by this type of people in making their voting decisions.
BC

Why would I run from your punk ass? I didn't even read your rubbish about
the Guard, but everybody during Vietnam knew that guys were using
connections to get into the guard to avoid Vietnam. Ebverybody knew and said
so. If that bothers you, tough shit.

I never criticised anybody over VN service. My own choice was to join the
Marines and get into VN, and get into combat, which I did.

As I've said before you, sound like an hysterical Walter Mitty type. Others
can read your posts and form their own opinions.

Post by Bill Case
Brooks

Post by Bill Case
Your concept is to support a rich kid shirker who never would have

gootnen

Post by Bill Case
anywhere near running for president if it wasn't for his family

name.

Post by Bill Case
Like

Post by Bill Case
said, peddle your weak crap elsewhere.

And JFK II was really just a kid off the streets, right? And Bush a
"shirker"? The same Bush who volunteered for Palace Alert duty? Who

flew

Post by Kevin Brooks
single engine fighter jets that are well beyond your capability to

even

Post by Kevin Brooks
comprehend, much less fly? And all of those poor ANG and ARNG

personnel

Post by Bill Case
who

Post by Kevin Brooks
got called up in 1968, a good chunk of them finding themselves in

Vietnam

Post by Kevin Brooks
short order...were they "shirkers" too?

You have a lot loose crap flying around in your head. JFK blah blah

blah.

Post by Bill Case
Single engine fightrers I can't "comprehend" --- hhahahaha. And HE

wasn't

Post by Bill Case
called up you fool.
It's coming to me now - you're a nitwit. Haha

Answer the question. Were they also "shirkers"? What, can't bring

yourself

Post by D. Spencer Hines
to answer that one?

Post by Kevin Brooks
You are not the brightest bulb on the tree, are ya?

Hah. A lot brighter and more stable than you are nitwit.

The evidence indicates otherwise. Be honest--you were not even aware of

the

Post by D. Spencer Hines
'68 mobilization and subsequent service in Vietnam of both ARNG and ANG
units, were you?

Post by Kevin Brooks
In war shit happens. Intel is more of an art than a science. How

many

Post by Kevin Brooks
attacks against American targets did your little buddy Clinton

endure,

Post by Kevin Brooks
without catching on? Was it four, or five? Took Bush one.

You're a real hardass... sitting in safety being dismissive of

women

Post by D. Spencer Hines
and

Post by Bill Case
children getting killed and maimed from misdirected strikes. By

the

Post by Bill Case
way,

Post by Bill Case
don't like Clinton, or his Republican mirror image, Bush. I was a

Republican

Post by Bill Case
for a long time until scumbags like Rove and company

demonstrated

Post by Bill Case
what

Post by Bill Case
the

Post by Bill Case
party was becoming.

Oh, I did my share of time sitting in miserable conditions playing

Post by Bill Case
little

Post by Kevin Brooks
part in that whole pointy-end-of-the-spear thingie. And yes,

collateral

Post by Kevin Brooks
damage and resultant casualties will occur in wars--despite the fact

that

Post by Kevin Brooks
did everything we could to prevent them. rememeber that little AH-64

deep

Post by Kevin Brooks
attack mission that got so much press for sustaining such damage? It

went

Post by Kevin Brooks
without the usual SEAD package--why, you ask? Because there were too

many

Post by Kevin Brooks
civies along the ingress route and the commander on the ground

decided

Post by Bill Case
that

Post by Kevin Brooks
SEAD fires would likely kill too many of them. Idiot.

There's a jabering idiot in this discussion, but its not me pal. You

sound

Post by Bill Case
hysterical.

So much for your ability to face facts.

Post by Bill Case
I don't know how or why Kerry left VN on his second tour

Second tour? LOL! I was not aware he ever set foot in, or flew over,

Post by Bill Case
even

Post by Kevin Brooks
really approached the shoreline of, Vietnam during his first tour.
and I doubt that

Post by Bill Case
you do either.

Yes, I do, Because he knew about the little used "three wounds and

your

Post by D. Spencer Hines
on

Post by Kevin Brooks
your way home" policy the Navy had...which might explain those two

curious

Post by Kevin Brooks
"wounds" with no lost duty days.

Little used? Bullshit you nitwit. That shows the extent of you

knowledge.

Post by Bill Case
All services had a 3 wounds and out policy.

But he was in the Navy--how many Navy vets took advantage of that little
loophole?

Post by Kevin Brooks
Whatever, his record and decorations beat using family

Post by Bill Case
connections to shirk war duty like Bush did. A lot of people who

served

Post by Kevin Brooks
and

Post by Bill Case
fought over there came away with conflicted feelings about it.

Shirk = National Guard duty, huh? Again, Palace Alert, the '68
mobilizations... not a very good definition of "shirker" you have

there.

Post by Bill Case
You're a clown. Missing meetings, not taking flight physicals and

losing

Post by Bill Case
flight status, there are a lot of issues regarding his service and

everyone

Post by Bill Case
knows it.

Uhmmm. National Guard service does not equal "shirker"; the 23,000

ANG/ARNG

Post by D. Spencer Hines
personnel activated in '68 bear witness to that. Bush did indeed

volunteer

Post by D. Spencer Hines
for Palace Alert. By the time he took that job in Alabama and began
"splitting-out" (not "missing meetings"--what he did was actually
"Equivalent Training", in Guard parlance) the US effort in Vietnam was

Post by D. Spencer Hines
the rails bound for Vietnamization, and his unit had lost its ADC alert
mission in favor of a training role that he was really not qualified for

due

Post by D. Spencer Hines
to inexperience. He did his time, got his honorable discharge. Yep,

sounds

Post by D. Spencer Hines
like he did his part to me.

Post by Bill Case
Second, the experience of being on the sharp edge of things

teaches

Post by Kevin Brooks
person

Post by Bill Case
to learn what really works and doesn't work in war. He's going

Post by D. Spencer Hines
do

Post by Bill Case
very

Post by Bill Case
well as President in improving US security, versus spending

huge

Post by Kevin Brooks
amounts

Post by Bill Case
money and phony posturing for Walter Mitty types like you.

But according to him, all he learned was how to commit

atrocities.

Post by D. Spencer Hines
So

Post by Kevin Brooks
what

Post by Kevin Brooks
good would he be?

Again, bullshit.

What, you think he did NOT accuse US troops of widespread,

commonplace

Post by Kevin Brooks
atrocities? What planet have YOU been on lately? He even appeared on

"Meet

Post by Kevin Brooks
The Press" to discuss his accusations, accompanied by another

Vietnam

Post by Bill Case
combat

Post by Kevin Brooks
vet...ooops! Turns out the other guy was a phoney who had a creative

mind

Post by Kevin Brooks
when it came to where/how he served.

He's also got circle of people he served in combat with. As I said, a

lot

Post by D. Spencer Hines
of

Post by Bill Case
people who saw action in that war came away with mixed feelings

Gee, how amazing--folks wanting to be associated with a genuine

presidential

Post by D. Spencer Hines
contender! Who'd have thunk it? A lot of Vietnam vets have also come

down

Post by D. Spencer Hines
hard on him for breaking faith with his fellow servicemembers--not
necessarily because he opposed the war, but because he parroted that
ridiculous "Winter Soldier Investigation" crap regarding widespread
atrocities and crimes. Oddly enough, subsequent investigation into those

WSI

Post by D. Spencer Hines
claims revealed no evidence to support them (some personnel who

allegedly

Post by D. Spencer Hines
"testified" even denied being there, leaving one wondering *who* did the
actual "testifying"). And yes, Kerry's VVAW sidekick during that 1971

"Meet

Post by D. Spencer Hines
the Press" interview did indeed turn out to have not been what he

claimed

Post by Bill Case
to

Post by D. Spencer Hines
be, namely a Vietnam combat vet.

Post by Kevin Brooks
Hey, where are your Walter Mitty claims?

Even more alive and well than before. Take your hysteria elsewhere

nitwit.

Post by Bill Case
Is this all you have to do, dashing off acronymed psuedo-authorative
bullshit in newsgroups?

Gee, at least the claims I have made are fact-based--what about your

flights

Post by D. Spencer Hines
of fancy? And what is the story here? All of a sudden you are backing

down

Post by D. Spencer Hines
from that "dick measuring" contest in regards to military experience?
Brooks

Kevin Brooks

2004-03-06 02:43:34 UTC

Post by Bill Case
You go on and on with this rubbish. The fact remains Kerry volunteered

his

Post by Bill Case
way into a dangerous job, Swift river boats, and has a circle of service
friends who were in action with him who back him up as a good man in

action.

had

Post by Bill Case
little chance of being sent to combat, then he misses a flight physical

that

Post by Bill Case
takes him out of flight status, effectively eliminating any chance of

seeing

Post by Bill Case
action, and few people can even remember him attending meetings.
Bush is known for pulling scummy tricks on opponents. Ex-pow Senator

McCane

Post by Bill Case
smeared in phone calls as having a black kid (I think they adopted an

Asian

Post by Bill Case
child) in the last hours before an election in the south. Senator

Clelend,

are

Post by Bill Case
your motives?
People reading this might want to consider the nature and pattern of

these

Post by Bill Case
types of attacks on men who actually did risk their lives in serving

their

Post by Bill Case
country, by this type of people in making their voting decisions.
BC

under

Post by Bill Case
Bush.

Again, how do you label the aggregate personnel of two organizations that
activated units with a combined total of some 23,000 personnel, many of whom
soon found themselves in Vietnam, and which also included a fair number of
vets who had either served in Korea or even in Vietnam, as "shirkers"?
Painting with a rather broad brush there, aren't you?

Post by Bill Case
I never criticised anybody over VN service. My own choice was to join the
Marines and get into VN, and get into combat, which I did.

Yes, you have indeed criticised Bush over his service during that time
period. You forget so soon?

Post by Bill Case
As I've said before you, sound like an hysterical Walter Mitty type. Others
can read your posts and form their own opinions.

Uhmmm...how many years did you wear a uniform?

And now we have your great democratic hope, Kerry, stating that, "A U.S.
commitment not to increase its offensive capabilities on the Korean
peninsula..." is the way to bring Pyongyang around. Oh, yeah-- now *that's*
a good security plan. What do you call that, the "Buckle Under DPRK
Blackmail" strategy? As an editorial in the CSM was titled, "North Korea
Waits for Kerry". Gee, if the DPRK endorses Kerry, do you still think his
national security credentials are just peachy?

Brooks

<snip>

Bill Case

2004-03-06 03:13:04 UTC

Bush.

said

Post by Bill Case
so. If that bothers you, tough shit.

As many people have said, Bush used his family connnections to get into the
Guard and avoid VN service, and he succeeded.

You keep associating some call-up or something with shirking. I didn't
mention anything about a call up, and frnakly I nrither know nor care what
the hell you're talking about.

Post by Bill Case
I never criticised anybody over VN service. My own choice was to join the
Marines and get into VN, and get into combat, which I did.

Yes, you have indeed criticised Bush over his service during that time
period. You forget so soon?

Post by Bill Case
As I've said before you, sound like an hysterical Walter Mitty type.

Others

Post by Bill Case
can read your posts and form their own opinions.

Uhmmm...how many years did you wear a uniform?

Four years and I would come back by asking you the same, but I don't care if
you were in or not. Don't tell me. Just go away.

Kevin Brooks

2004-03-06 06:25:55 UTC

Bush.

Why would I run from your punk ass? I didn't even read your rubbish

about

Post by Bill Case
the Guard, but everybody during Vietnam knew that guys were using
connections to get into the guard to avoid Vietnam. Ebverybody knew and

said

Post by Bill Case
so. If that bothers you, tough shit.

Again, how do you label the aggregate personnel of two organizations that
activated units with a combined total of some 23,000 personnel, many of

whom

Post by Kevin Brooks
soon found themselves in Vietnam, and which also included a fair number of
vets who had either served in Korea or even in Vietnam, as "shirkers"?
Painting with a rather broad brush there, aren't you?

As many people have said, Bush used his family connnections to get into the
Guard and avoid VN service, and he succeeded.

"As many people have said" does not amount to a hill of beans, especially
since that "many people" have invariably been his political opponents. Now
either you think Guard service was a simple "avoid Vietnam" proposition, or
you don't--which is it? Given the FACT that 23,000 plus Guardsmen were
mobilized in 1968, with a large chunk of them ending up in Vietnam
(including some four tactical fighter groups), and the FACT that there were
Guardsmen serving during that timeperiod who were veterans of either WWII,
Korea, or Vietnam, it seems it would be hard to support the former position
(though I am sure you, in your usual illogical manner, will try to do so).

Post by Bill Case
You keep associating some call-up or something with shirking. I didn't
mention anything about a call up, and frnakly I nrither know nor care what
the hell you're talking about.

You can't label the Guard as being a way of "shirking" duty when in fact a
substantial number of them were called up for active duty and served in
Vietnam.

Post by Bill Case
I never criticised anybody over VN service. My own choice was to join

the

Post by Bill Case
Marines and get into VN, and get into combat, which I did.

Yes, you have indeed criticised Bush over his service during that time
period. You forget so soon?

Post by Bill Case
As I've said before you, sound like an hysterical Walter Mitty type.

Others

Post by Bill Case
can read your posts and form their own opinions.

Uhmmm...how many years did you wear a uniform?

Four years and I would come back by asking you the same, but I don't care if
you were in or not. Don't tell me. Just go away.

Substantially more than four years, pally.

Brooks

Bill Case

2004-03-06 16:05:34 UTC

The standup patriotic guys who wanted to serve during Vietnam joined the
active military services; Army, USMC, etc, not the reserves and guard, which
often required family contacts to get into. At the time, the guard and
reserve was not anticipated to be called up, and in fact very few were, and
were not particulary effective combat units and were not used for much, and
had few casualites. Your whining and twisting doesn't change that reality.

You go on and on with this rubbish. Your tactics of framing phony questions
are childish. Essentially, you're a nag.

The fact remains Kerry volunteered his way into a dangerous job, Swift river
boats, and has a circle of service
friends who were in action with him who back him up as a good man in action.
[People who are reading this might want to take a look at Douglass
Brinckley's biography of him (I have not read it yet).]

Bush has what? Karl Rove? He used his elitist family ties to get into a unit
that had
little chance of being sent to combat, then he misses a flight physical that
takes him out of flight status, effectively eliminating any chance of seeing
action, and few people can even remember him attending meetings.

Bush is known for pulling scummy tricks on opponents through his long time
associate Karl Rove. Ex-pow Senator McCane
smeared in phone calls as having a black kid (I think they adopted an Asian
child) in the last hours before an election in the south. Senator Clelend, a
triple combat amputee smeared as unpatriotic in an election.

Why should anyone give credibility to your attempts to smear Kerry's war
record? Isn't it highly consistent with the well known scummy mode of
operation of Bush and company? Do you have any character at all? What are
your motives?

People reading this might want to consider the nature and pattern of these
types of attacks on men who actually did risk their lives in serving their
country, by this type of people in making their voting decisions.

BC

Bush.

Why would I run from your punk ass? I didn't even read your rubbish

about

Post by Bill Case
the Guard, but everybody during Vietnam knew that guys were using
connections to get into the guard to avoid Vietnam. Ebverybody knew

and

Post by Kevin Brooks
said

Post by Bill Case
so. If that bothers you, tough shit.

Again, how do you label the aggregate personnel of two organizations

that

Post by Kevin Brooks
activated units with a combined total of some 23,000 personnel, many of

whom

Post by Kevin Brooks
soon found themselves in Vietnam, and which also included a fair

number

Post by Kevin Brooks
vets who had either served in Korea or even in Vietnam, as "shirkers"?
Painting with a rather broad brush there, aren't you?

As many people have said, Bush used his family connnections to get into

the

Post by Bill Case
Guard and avoid VN service, and he succeeded.

Post by Bill Case
You keep associating some call-up or something with shirking. I didn't
mention anything about a call up, and frnakly I nrither know nor care what
the hell you're talking about.

You can't label the Guard as being a way of "shirking" duty when in fact a
substantial number of them were called up for active duty and served in
Vietnam.

Post by Bill Case
I never criticised anybody over VN service. My own choice was to join

the

Post by Bill Case
Marines and get into VN, and get into combat, which I did.

Yes, you have indeed criticised Bush over his service during that time
period. You forget so soon?

Post by Bill Case
As I've said before you, sound like an hysterical Walter Mitty type.

Others

Post by Bill Case
can read your posts and form their own opinions.

Uhmmm...how many years did you wear a uniform?

Four years and I would come back by asking you the same, but I don't

care

Post by Kevin Brooks
if

Post by Bill Case
you were in or not. Don't tell me. Just go away.

Substantially more than four years, pally.
Brooks

Kevin Brooks

2004-03-06 17:39:41 UTC

Post by Bill Case
The standup patriotic guys who wanted to serve during Vietnam joined the
active military services; Army, USMC, etc, not the reserves and guard, which
often required family contacts to get into. At the time, the guard and
reserve was not anticipated to be called up, and in fact very few were, and
were not particulary effective combat units and were not used for much, and
had few casualites. Your whining and twisting doesn't change that reality.

Coming from a guy who just said, "I never criticised anybody over VN
service", this is truly ripe! Not effective? Look at the record of D Co,
151st Inf (Long Range Patrol, later "Ranger"), an ARNG unit out of Indiana
that went to Vietnam. Low casualty count? As if higher casualties indicated
better performance?! OK, if you want to play that way, look at the 116th
Engineer Battalion from the IDARNG--it suffered a total of 78 casualties
during its tour. New hampshire's 3-197th FA suffered 6 KIA during its tour.
The town of bardstown, Kentucky lost thirteen young men KIA in one day of
action when one of the batteries of the 2-138th FA had its firebase attacked
on June 19, 1969. D-151st Inf suffered two KIA and over 100 WIA during its
tour. That enough casualties for you? Regarding quality, this is what the
USAF theater commander in Vietnam had to say about his ANG units in
testimony before the Senate (and I guess you would accord him at least as
much credibility as you give your hero Kerry for his atrocity testimony,
right?):

"I had ... five F-100 Air National Guard squadrons ... Those were the five
best F-100 squadrons in the field," he said. "The aircrews were a little
older, but they were more experienced, and the maintenance people were also
more experienced than the regular units. They had done the same work on the
weapon system for years, and they had stability that a regular unit doesn't
have." www.ngaus.org/ngmagazine/vietnam1002.asp

As usual, you are long on rubbish and short on facts.

Post by Bill Case
You go on and on with this rubbish. Your tactics of framing phony questions
are childish. Essentially, you're a nag.

The Guard served in Vietnam. It suffered casualties in Vietnam. Live with
those facts.

Post by Bill Case
The fact remains Kerry volunteered his way into a dangerous job, Swift river
boats, and has a circle of service
friends who were in action with him who back him up as a good man in action.
[People who are reading this might want to take a look at Douglass
Brinckley's biography of him (I have not read it yet).]
Bush has what? Karl Rove? He used his elitist family ties to get into a unit
that had
little chance of being sent to combat, then he misses a flight physical that
takes him out of flight status, effectively eliminating any chance of seeing
action, and few people can even remember him attending meetings.

Bush joined the ANG the *same* year that all of those other ANG and ARNG
units were activated. He joined a unit that was providing pilots under
Palace Alert to serve in Vietnam and Thailand. That by the time he was
finished with his training the USAF had decided to remove the F-102 from the
theater does not reflect poorly upon him. That he was willing to voluntter
for Palace Alert duty while he was still in the final phase of his training
speaks well for him. That you can not recognize this just reflects your own
deep seated bias.

Post by Bill Case
Bush is known for pulling scummy tricks on opponents through his long time
associate Karl Rove. Ex-pow Senator McCane
smeared in phone calls as having a black kid (I think they adopted an Asian
child) in the last hours before an election in the south. Senator Clelend, a
triple combat amputee smeared as unpatriotic in an election.

And you think Bush was responsible for such alleged attacks? Figures.

Post by Bill Case
Why should anyone give credibility to your attempts to smear Kerry's war
record? Isn't it highly consistent with the well known scummy mode of
operation of Bush and company? Do you have any character at all? What are
your motives?

The truth. Where is kerry's service record during his USNR time? He
supposedly remained in the USNR until 1978--what duty did he ordered to
perform? Did he *ever* report in for duty? How justified was he in receiving
those two PH's that resulted in no lost duty days? To qualify for a PH,
medical treatment by a physician is required--where are the records? Why
have Kerry's accusations of widespread atrocities never panned out? Lot's of
questions, few answers. From a guy who thinks the best way to deal with the
DPRK is too meet their demands up front, and who has repeatedly taken the
floor to try and gut the intel agencies, while voting against a plethora of
weapons systems that have proven to be quite valuable in the end analysis.
Oh, yeah, that is one heck of a national security "expert" you have there.

And it's kind of funny how you backed off of the "I served, you didn't" crap
sort of quick-like, pally.

Brooks

Bill Case

2004-03-06 18:16:09 UTC

Post by Bill Case
The standup patriotic guys who wanted to serve during Vietnam joined the
active military services; Army, USMC, etc, not the reserves and guard,

which

Post by Bill Case
often required family contacts to get into. At the time, the guard and
reserve was not anticipated to be called up, and in fact very few were,

and

Post by Bill Case
were not particulary effective combat units and were not used for much,

and

Post by Bill Case
had few casualites. Your whining and twisting doesn't change that reality.

Coming from a guy who just said, "I never criticised anybody over VN
service", this is truly ripe! Not effective?

Not until the topic was raised in this thread. You go on and on about what
do you expect?

Look at the record of D Co,

Post by Kevin Brooks
151st Inf (Long Range Patrol, later "Ranger"), an ARNG unit out of Indiana
that went to Vietnam. Low casualty count? As if higher casualties indicated
better performance?! OK, if you want to play that way, look at the 116th
Engineer Battalion from the IDARNG--it suffered a total of 78 casualties
during its tour. New hampshire's 3-197th FA suffered 6 KIA during its tour.
The town of bardstown, Kentucky lost thirteen young men KIA in one day of
action when one of the batteries of the 2-138th FA had its firebase attacked
on June 19, 1969. D-151st Inf suffered two KIA and over 100 WIA during its
tour. That enough casualties for you? Regarding quality, this is what the
USAF theater commander in Vietnam had to say about his ANG units in
testimony before the Senate (and I guess you would accord him at least as
much credibility as you give your hero Kerry for his atrocity testimony,

So the average guy joined the guard or reserves in order to go to VN - I
don' think so. It was a big long war with a lot of people in it. And citing
a few cases doesn't disprove what was well understood to be true during
those times.

Post by Kevin Brooks
"I had ... five F-100 Air National Guard squadrons ... Those were the five
best F-100 squadrons in the field," he said. "The aircrews were a little
older, but they were more experienced, and the maintenance people were also
more experienced than the regular units. They had done the same work on the
weapon system for years, and they had stability that a regular unit doesn't
have." www.ngaus.org/ngmagazine/vietnam1002.asp
As usual, you are long on rubbish and short on facts.

No I'm not. You constatnly go off on esoteric things and pretend to have
proven a point - you haven't.

Post by Bill Case
You go on and on with this rubbish. Your tactics of framing phony

questions

Post by Bill Case
are childish. Essentially, you're a nag.

The Guard served in Vietnam. It suffered casualties in Vietnam. Live with
those facts.

Strawman arguments are childish and ineffective with the level of probable
readers of this endless thread.

Post by Bill Case
The fact remains Kerry volunteered his way into a dangerous job, Swift

river

Post by Bill Case
boats, and has a circle of service
friends who were in action with him who back him up as a good man in

action.

Post by Bill Case
[People who are reading this might want to take a look at Douglass
Brinckley's biography of him (I have not read it yet).]
Bush has what? Karl Rove? He used his elitist family ties to get into a

unit

Post by Bill Case
that had
little chance of being sent to combat, then he misses a flight physical

that

Post by Bill Case
takes him out of flight status, effectively eliminating any chance of

seeing

Post by Bill Case
action, and few people can even remember him attending meetings.

Get real. If the guy had wanted to serve he could have joined an active unit
and gone, like many of us did. Get real.

Asian

Post by Bill Case
child) in the last hours before an election in the south. Senator

Clelend,

Post by Kevin Brooks
a

Post by Bill Case
triple combat amputee smeared as unpatriotic in an election.

And you think Bush was responsible for such alleged attacks? Figures.

PNAC member of the week: Karl Rove
Attended 6 colleges without ever getting a degree, He later went on
to teach graduate students.
Mr Rove was one of the biggest holders of Enron stock among White
House staffers, with between $100,000 and $250,000 worth of shares when he
was appointed. The White House has acknowledged that Mr Rove took part in
the secret meetings that helped shape the Bush government's energy policy,
while he still held Enron shares and stock in other energy companies.

Said, by some, to be the most powerful presidential advisor in a
century. Said, by more, to be the chief instigator of dirty tricks and
character assassination campaigns against those who challenge the policies
of the Bush administration. He earned his stripes first as an apprentice of
Richard Nixon's dirty trickster, Donald Segretti. Rove then went on to hone
and refine his duplicitous craft under Republican National Committee
chairmen George H. W. Bush, Lee Atwater, and, finally, George W. Bush
After trashing the personal character of former Texas Democratic
Governors Mark White and Ann Richards, Texas Democratic Representative Lloyd
Doggett, and Arizona Republican Senator John McCain, Rove now uses his
tricks to assassinate the characters of noble and non-political men and
women. Recent victims have been PFC Jessica Lynch, CIA agent Valerie Plame,
former Marine Corps officer Scott Ritter, retired Marine Corps General
Anthony Zinni, and Iraqi War commander General Tommy Franks. Over the years,
Rove has relied on the planting of bogus stories in the media, production of
counterfeit documents, the theft of campaign materials and internal
documents, production of false witnesses, electronic eavesdropping, misuse
of government resources, unethical political polling techniques,
intimidation of minority voters, and "whispering campaigns" to advance the
sordid agenda of the neo-conservative, extreme right wing of the Republican
Party.
Fellow PNAC member, Wialliam Kristol has said of Rove: "I believe
Karl is Bush. They're not separate, each of them freestanding, with distinct
agendas, as some people say. Karl thinks X. Bush thinks X. Clearly, it's a
very complicated relationship."

The truth. Where is kerry's service record during his USNR time? He
supposedly remained in the USNR until 1978--what duty did he ordered to
perform? Did he *ever* report in for duty? How justified was he in receiving
those two PH's that resulted in no lost duty days? To qualify for a PH,
medical treatment by a physician is required--where are the records? Why
have Kerry's accusations of widespread atrocities never panned out? Lot's of
questions, few answers. From a guy who thinks the best way to deal with the
DPRK is too meet their demands up front, and who has repeatedly taken the
floor to try and gut the intel agencies, while voting against a plethora of
weapons systems that have proven to be quite valuable in the end analysis.
Oh, yeah, that is one heck of a national security "expert" you have there.
And it's kind of funny how you backed off of the "I served, you didn't" crap
sort of quick-like, pally.

I didn't back off of anyhting you lying phony, and I'm not your pal asshole.
You're constantly whining and crying about your "service". I think you're
sensitive for some reason, and you have all kinds of stuff going through
your head with imagined slights and so forth. Christ.

Bugger off.

Since you keep this thing alive I'm going to use it as an opportunity to
re-state my own views on what's relevant of this VN stuff...

The main fact remains Kerry volunteered his
way into a dangerous job, Swift river boats, and has a circle of service
friends who were in action with him who back him up as a good man in action.
[People who are reading this might want to take a look at Douglass
Brinckley's biography of him (I have not read it yet).]

Bush has what? He used his elitist family ties to get into a unit that had
little chance of being sent to combat, then he misses a flight physical that
takes him out of flight status, effectively eliminating any chance of seeing
action, and few people can even remember him attending meetings.

Bush is known for pulling scummy tricks on opponents. Ex-pow Senator McCane
smeared in phone calls as having a black kid (I think they adopted an Asian
child) in the last hours before an election in the south. Senator Clelend, a
triple combat amputee smeared as unpatriotic in an election.

Why should anyone give credibility to your attempts to smear Kerry's war
record? Isn't it highly consistent with the well known scummy mode of
operation of Bush and company? Do you have any character at all? What are
your motives?

People reading this might want to consider the nature and pattern of these
types of attacks on men who actually did risk their lives in serving their
country, by this type of people in making their voting decisions.

BC

Bill Case

2004-03-06 18:20:24 UTC

Here's the URL for the short piece on Karl Rove, in the above post.
http://oldamericancentury.org/karl_rove.htm

Kevin Brooks

2004-03-06 19:04:17 UTC

Post by Bill Case
The standup patriotic guys who wanted to serve during Vietnam joined the
active military services; Army, USMC, etc, not the reserves and guard,

which

Post by Bill Case
often required family contacts to get into. At the time, the guard and
reserve was not anticipated to be called up, and in fact very few were,

and

Post by Bill Case
were not particulary effective combat units and were not used for much,

and

Post by Bill Case
had few casualites. Your whining and twisting doesn't change that

reality.

Post by Kevin Brooks
Coming from a guy who just said, "I never criticised anybody over VN
service", this is truly ripe! Not effective?

Not until the topic was raised in this thread. You go on and on about what
do you expect?

You raised it, idiot. With your rabid anti-Bush rant.

Post by Kevin Brooks
Look at the record of D Co,

Post by Kevin Brooks
151st Inf (Long Range Patrol, later "Ranger"), an ARNG unit out of Indiana
that went to Vietnam. Low casualty count? As if higher casualties

indicated

Post by Kevin Brooks
better performance?! OK, if you want to play that way, look at the 116th
Engineer Battalion from the IDARNG--it suffered a total of 78 casualties
during its tour. New hampshire's 3-197th FA suffered 6 KIA during its

tour.

Post by Kevin Brooks
The town of bardstown, Kentucky lost thirteen young men KIA in one day of
action when one of the batteries of the 2-138th FA had its firebase

attacked

Post by Kevin Brooks
on June 19, 1969. D-151st Inf suffered two KIA and over 100 WIA during its
tour. That enough casualties for you? Regarding quality, this is what the
USAF theater commander in Vietnam had to say about his ANG units in
testimony before the Senate (and I guess you would accord him at least as
much credibility as you give your hero Kerry for his atrocity testimony,

So the average guy joined the guard or reserves in order to go to VN - I
don' think so.

No, the "average guy" either joined to perform his service to his country in
a completely acceptable manner, *or* he joined after getting back from a
tour in Vietnam (as my own brother did), *or* he didn't join at all, because
he had already *been* serving* in the Guard for years before Vietnam even
became a topic of discussion around the evening supper table. Bush joined
*after* the activation of NG units for Vietnam service--which would point to
the Guard as hardly being a guaranteed pass from serving in that conflict.

It was a big long war with a lot of people in it. And citing

Post by Kevin Brooks
a few cases doesn't disprove what was well understood to be true during
those times.

It proves your accusations about the service of the Guard in Vietnam were
about as reliable as anything else you have muttered--which would be "not
very".

also

Post by Kevin Brooks
more experienced than the regular units. They had done the same work on

the

Post by Kevin Brooks
weapon system for years, and they had stability that a regular unit

doesn't

Post by Kevin Brooks
have." www.ngaus.org/ngmagazine/vietnam1002.asp
As usual, you are long on rubbish and short on facts.

No I'm not. You constatnly go off on esoteric things and pretend to have
proven a point - you haven't.

Your words:

"At the time, the guard and reserve was not anticipated to be called up..."
Bullshit. At the time Bush joined 23,000 Guardsmen were in the process of
being called up.

"...and in fact very few were..." Bullshit, unless you consider 23,000 an
insignificant number--that is what, the equivalent of about 1.5 Army
divisions at that time?

"...were not particulary effective combat units and were not used for
much..." Bullshit again. D-151st Inf Rgt had a very successful tour, as did
that engineer battalion and those two arty battalions. The F-100 units were
cited as being *better* than their AC counterparts. But I guess you know
better than the USAF CG, huh?

"...had few casualites..." Tell that to the families in Bardstown, OK? And
you are the guy who claims to have not called into question the service of
anyone who went to Vietnam? Geeze, what a two-faced fellow you are.

Post by Bill Case
You go on and on with this rubbish. Your tactics of framing phony

questions

Post by Bill Case
are childish. Essentially, you're a nag.

The Guard served in Vietnam. It suffered casualties in Vietnam. Live with
those facts.

Strawman arguments are childish and ineffective with the level of probable
readers of this endless thread.

Those "strawman" argunments disproved your squeaks otherwise.

Post by Bill Case
The fact remains Kerry volunteered his way into a dangerous job, Swift

river

Post by Bill Case
boats, and has a circle of service
friends who were in action with him who back him up as a good man in

action.

unit

Post by Bill Case
that had
little chance of being sent to combat, then he misses a flight physical

that

Post by Bill Case
takes him out of flight status, effectively eliminating any chance of

seeing

Post by Bill Case
action, and few people can even remember him attending meetings.

the

Post by Kevin Brooks
theater does not reflect poorly upon him. That he was willing to voluntter
for Palace Alert duty while he was still in the final phase of his

training

Post by Kevin Brooks
speaks well for him. That you can not recognize this just reflects your

own

Post by Kevin Brooks
deep seated bias.

Get real. If the guy had wanted to serve he could have joined an active unit
and gone, like many of us did. Get real.

But he did serve. Again, you aren't real quick on the uptake, are you?

Post by Bill Case
Bush is known for pulling scummy tricks on opponents through his long

time

Post by Bill Case
associate Karl Rove. Ex-pow Senator McCane
smeared in phone calls as having a black kid (I think they adopted an

Asian

Post by Bill Case
child) in the last hours before an election in the south. Senator

Clelend,

Post by Kevin Brooks
a

Post by Bill Case
triple combat amputee smeared as unpatriotic in an election.

And you think Bush was responsible for such alleged attacks? Figures.

Talk about strawman arguments... Now tell us, how does any of this prove
your accusations about Bush being behind the alleged attacks against Cleland
and McCane? It doesn't.

<snip increasingly futile whining>

are

Post by Bill Case
your motives?

receiving

Post by Kevin Brooks
those two PH's that resulted in no lost duty days? To qualify for a PH,
medical treatment by a physician is required--where are the records? Why
have Kerry's accusations of widespread atrocities never panned out?

Lot's

Post by Kevin Brooks
questions, few answers. From a guy who thinks the best way to deal with

the

Post by Kevin Brooks
DPRK is too meet their demands up front, and who has repeatedly taken the
floor to try and gut the intel agencies, while voting against a plethora

Post by Kevin Brooks
weapons systems that have proven to be quite valuable in the end analysis.
Oh, yeah, that is one heck of a national security "expert" you have there.
And it's kind of funny how you backed off of the "I served, you didn't"

crap

Post by Kevin Brooks
sort of quick-like, pally.

More yeasr of service under my belt than you have, pally. Not bad for a
Walter Mitty, eh? Grab a copy of the March 99 edition of the US Army's
"Engineer" and you can find my snapshot military biography following an
article I wrote for that publication. Now where is the proof behind your
alleged service?

Brooks

<snip further whining>

Bill Case

2004-03-06 19:32:42 UTC

Post by Kevin Brooks
service", this is truly ripe! Not effective?

Not until the topic was raised in this thread. You go on and on about what
do you expect?

You raised it, idiot. With your rabid anti-Bush rant.

No, dumbass, I didn't. Look at the subject of the thread you idiot and
you'll see that I was responding to it, and then later your disjointed
hysterical babble.

Take your meds dummy. <snip a bunch of whining and crying>

Here's a good excerpt from a Baltimore Sun article re. Bush, the draft,
Guard etc during Vietnam, and the URL. Look at the 1994 quote attributed to
Bush, I assume it's true.

Then think about how much credility to give to this waste that I have been
dealing with here.

Start quote
"" Most Guard units required six months of active duty, followed by weekend
assignments. The Air National Guard that Bush joined required a two-year
hitch for flight training. Bush has said that is the reason it had no
waiting list.
Segal finds that hard to believe. "In 1968, I don't think there was a
National Guard unit in the country that did not have a waiting list," he
says. "But no one would know that except the people in the unit itself."

In 1994, Bush said his reason for joining the National Guard was the
standard one. "I was not prepared to shoot my eardrum out with a shotgun in
order to get a deferment. Nor was I willing to go to Canada. So I chose to
better myself by learning how to fly airplanes," Bush told an interviewer in
Houston.
In more recent interviews, Bush has promoted his time in the Guard, noting
that many Guard members are in Iraq.

End quote

Hey - this is getting FUN. "I was not prepared to shoot my eardrum out with
a shotgun in order to get a deferment. Nor was I willing to go to Canada. So
I chose to better myself by learning how to fly airplanes," Bush told an
interviewer in Houston.

Really excellent!!!!!!!!!!! Hahahahahahahahaha

URL
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/oped/bal-pe.draft15feb15,0,1960525.story

Since I have to spend time answering this little fool, I'll indulge myself
in repeating what I think is relevant about all this;

The main fact remains Kerry volunteered his
way into a dangerous job, Swift river boats, and has a circle of service
friends who were in action with him who back him up as a good man in action.
[People who are reading this might want to take a look at Douglass
Brinckley's biography of him (I have not read it yet).]

Bush has what? Karl Rove? He used his elitist family ties to get into a unit
that had
little chance of being sent to combat, then he misses a flight physical that
takes him out of flight status, effectively eliminating any chance of seeing
action, and few people can even remember him attending meetings.

Bush is known for pulling scummy tricks on opponents. Ex-pow Senator McCane
smeared in phone calls as having a black kid (I think they adopted an Asian
child) in the last hours before an election in the south. Senator Clelend, a
triple combat amputee smeared as unpatriotic in an election.

Why should anyone give credibility to your attempts to smear Kerry's war
record? Isn't it highly consistent with the well known scummy mode of
operation of Bush and company? Do you have any character at all? What are
your motives?

People reading this might want to consider the nature and pattern of these
types of attacks on men who actually did risk their lives in serving their
country, by this type of people in making their voting decisions.

BC

Brett

2004-03-07 02:03:46 UTC

"Bill Case" <***@Hotmail.com> wrote:

<...>

Post by Bill Case
Senator Clelend, a
triple combat amputee smeared as unpatriotic in an election.

He wasn't "smeared as unpatriotic in an election", his voting record in the
Senate was identified for what it was, "too liberal" for Georgia. His voting
record in the Senate was highlighted by his opponent, and the voters in
Georgia made a selection based on the actual evidence that was presented.
btw. Cleland lost his legs and an arm because of an accident that he use to
admit was his own fault and wasn't related to any combat action.

D. Spencer Hines

2004-03-06 16:46:53 UTC

Max Cleland was so far out on the Left-Wing he voted AGAINST the
establishment of a Homeland Security Department.

Yes, he was far, far out of step with the voters of his state,
Georgia -- so they rejected him.

It's called Representative Democracy.

The voters have to ELECT you to serve as their representative -- every
six years for U. S. Senators, which is certainly a nice long term -- and
what you did 30 years ago is far less important that what you did last
month or last year.

Cleland defeated himself -- by his voting record.

DSH

"Brett" <***@192.168.10.1> wrote in message news:6qv2c.5587$***@www.newsranger.com...

| "Bill Case" <***@Hotmail.com> wrote:
|
| <...>
|
| > Senator Clelend, a
| > triple combat amputee smeared as unpatriotic in an election.
|
| He wasn't "smeared as unpatriotic in an election", his voting record
in the
| Senate was identified for what it was, "too liberal" for Georgia. His
voting
| record in the Senate was highlighted by his opponent, and the voters
in
| Georgia made a selection based on the actual evidence that was
presented.
| btw. Cleland lost his legs and an arm because of an accident that he
use to
| admit was his own fault and wasn't related to any combat action.

D. Spencer Hines

2004-03-06 06:20:20 UTC

Do you really believe this pogue was a United States Marine?

He's not fit to be a toilet-cleaner in a Marine barracks.

DSH

Bill Case

2004-03-06 16:18:17 UTC

Post by D. Spencer Hines
Do you really believe this pogue was a United States Marine?
He's not fit to be a toilet-cleaner in a Marine barracks.

You're a well known piece of yellow scum. Keep on backing Bush with his
attacks on MEN who did serve. It shows your level of character.

Post by D. Spencer Hines
DSH

Olivers

2004-03-07 02:57:26 UTC

Bill Case muttered....

Post by Bill Case
As many people have said, Bush used his family connnections to get
into the Guard and avoid VN service, and he succeeded.

In Texas, it sure didn't take "family connections". One of my brothers in
law enlisted in the local unit of the ArmyNG in 1968. The price....a
willingness to go the Jump School. As an old Air Intercept Controller,
having lost friends whom I had controlled to accident and misadventure, I
certainly never considered the flight training sysllabus and peace time ops
driving what in the late 60s were birds which flew with minimal margins of
safety and unforgiving characteristics asa piece of cake.

I would hope, given what seems a record with the USMC, that should you seek
public office, fellow Marines, officers, enlisted and senior NCOs would
step forward to comment upon your capacity in the billets you held and
their regard or lack of same for you. We've heard from Kerry's crew
(some). Where have the others been....the guys at OCS, the JOs in GRIDLEY,
the JOs and Chiefs in the Riverines?

TMO

Post by Bill Case
You keep associating some call-up or something with shirking. I didn't
mention anything about a call up, and frnakly I nrither know nor care
what the hell you're talking about.
Four years and I would come back by asking you the same, but I don't
care if you were in or not. Don't tell me. Just go away.

That thin of skin, are you? That's certainly no asset to objectivity or
perspective.....

I've no problem with Kerry's service in theater, his gallantry and luck.
On the other hand, his remarks of blanket condemnation of the actions of
those with whom he served remain idelible, absolute disqualifiers for the
office he seeks. Had he wanted to accuse individuals or describe specific
acts which he believed to be contrary to custom and the Laws of War, his
stance would have provided him with some credibility, then and now. But
his words at the time remain indelible and uneraseable. That was you he
was calling a war criminal....That was you he was accusing.

Now, having shit in our collective mess kits, he wants us to forget the
occasions upon which he chose to humiliate men and women certainly as brave
and honorable as he. A better man than he, George McGovern, never resorted
to that sleazy, dishonorable and disqualifying a tactic.

TMO

Peter Skelton

2004-03-07 09:43:12 UTC

On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 20:57:26 -0600, Olivers

Post by Olivers
Bill Case muttered....

Post by Bill Case
As many people have said, Bush used his family connnections to get
into the Guard and avoid VN service, and he succeeded.

In Texas, it sure didn't take "family connections". One of my brothers in
law enlisted in the local unit of the ArmyNG in 1968. The price....a
willingness to go the Jump School. As an old Air Intercept Controller,
having lost friends whom I had controlled to accident and misadventure, I
certainly never considered the flight training sysllabus and peace time ops
driving what in the late 60s were birds which flew with minimal margins of
safety and unforgiving characteristics asa piece of cake.
I would hope, given what seems a record with the USMC, that should you seek
public office, fellow Marines, officers, enlisted and senior NCOs would
step forward to comment upon your capacity in the billets you held and
their regard or lack of same for you. We've heard from Kerry's crew
(some). Where have the others been....the guys at OCS, the JOs in GRIDLEY,
the JOs and Chiefs in the Riverines?

I do not recall much from Bush the elder's service contemporaries
while he was running.

Peter Skelton

Jack Linthicum

2004-03-07 19:07:23 UTC

Olivers <***@LOSETHIScalpha.com> wrote in message news:<***@216.196.97.132>...
. We've heard from Kerry's crew

Post by Olivers
(some). Where have the others been....the guys at OCS, the JOs in GRIDLEY,
the JOs and Chiefs in the Riverines?

First, there have been statements made that Kerry didn't have any
training between OCS and reporting to the Gridley.

John Kerry's Vietnam Service Record:

February 18, 1966 Kerry formally enlists in the U.S. Navy

August 22, 1966 Kerry reports for Naval Officer Candidate School at
the U.S. Naval Training Center in Newport, Rhode Island

December 16, 1966 Kerry receives commission as an Ensign

January 3, 1967 Kerry reports for duty at the Naval Schools Command
at Treasure Island (CA)-Takes 10 week Officer Damage Control Course

March 22, 1967 Reports to U.S. Fleet Anti-Air Warfare Training
Center (CA). Receives training as a Combat Information Center Watch
Officer.

June 8, 1967 Kerry reports to USS Gridley-serves in several
capacities

February 9, 1968 USS Gridley departs for a Western Pacific (WESTPAC)
deployment, to engage in operations in support of the Vietnam War.
Ship spends time in the Gulf of Tonkin off North Vietnam, at Subic Bay
in the Philippines and in Wellington, New Zealand

February 10, 1968 Kerry requests duty in Vietnam He lists his first
preference for a position as an officer in charge of a Swift Boat
(designated PCF for Patrol Craft Fast), his second as an officer in a
patrol boat (designated PBR, for Patrol Boat River) squadron

May 27, 1968 USS Gridley sets sail for the US

June 6, 1968 Kerry arrives in Long Beach the day after Senator
Robert F. Kennedy is killed in Los Angeles

June 16, 1968 Kerry promoted to Lieutenant, Junior Grade

July 20, 1968 Kerry leaves Gridley for specialized training at the
Naval Amphibious Base in Coronado, CA in preparation for service as
commander of a Swift Boat. These unarmored, but heavily armed, fifty
foot aluminum hulled patrol boats depended on speed and agility when
engaging the enemy.

November 17, 1968 Upon completion of his training, Kerry reports for
duty to Coastal Squadron 1, Coastal Division 14, Cam Ranh Bay, South
Vietnam.

December 1968 through January 1969 Kerry commands PCF-44

December 2, 1968 Kerry experiences first intense combat; receives
first combat related injury.

December 6, 1968 Kerry moved to Coastal Division 11 at An Thoi on
Phu Quoc Island

December 13, 1968 Kerry moved to Coastal Division 13, Cam Ranh Bay

December 24, 1968 Kerry involved in combat during the Christmas Eve
truce of 1968. The truce was three minutes old when mortar fire
exploded around Lieutenant Kerry and his five-man crew. Reacting
swiftly, John Kerry and his crew silenced the machine gun nest

January 22, 1969 Kerry and other Swift boat commanders travel to
Saigon for meeting with Adm. Elmo Zumwalt, Commander Naval Forces
Vietnam (COMNAVFORV), and Gen. Creighton Abrams, Commander United
States Military Assistance Command Vietnam (COMUSMACV)

Late January, 1969 Kerry joined his 5 man crew on PCF-94

Late January through Early March, 1969 Starting in late January
1969, this crew completed 18 missions over an intense and dangerous 48
days, almost all of them in the dense jungles of the Mekong Delta.
Kerry's crew included engineman Eugene Thorson, later an Iowa cement
mason; David Alston, then the crew's only African-American and today a
minister in South Carolina; petty officer Del Sandusky of Illinois;
rear gunner and quartermaster Michael Medeiros of California; and the
late Tom Belodeau, who joined the crew fresh out of Chelmsford High
School in Massachusetts. Others rotated in and out of the crew. The
most intense action came during an extraordinary eight days of more
than 10 firefights, remembered by Kerry's crew as the "days of hell."

February 20, 1969 Kerry and crew involved in combat; Kerry receives
second combat injury Kerry earned his second Purple Heart after
sustaining a shrapnel wound in his left thigh.

February 28, 1969 For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity in
action while serving with Coastal Division ELEVEN engaged in armed
conflict with Viet Cong insurgents in An Xuyen Province, Republic of
Vietnam, on 28 February 1969. Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry was
serving as Officer in Charge of Patrol Craft Fast 94 and Officer in
Tactical Command of a three-boat mission. As the force approached the
target area on the narrow Dong Cung River, all units came under
intense automatic weapons and small arms fire from an entrenched enemy
force less than fifty-feet away. Unhesitatingly, Lieutenant (junior
grade) Kerry ordered his boat to attack as all units opened fire and
beached directly in front of the enemy ambushers. The daring and
courageous tactic surprised the enemy and succeeded in routing a score
of enemy soldiers. The PCF gunners captured many enemy weapons in the
battle that followed. On a request from U.S. Army advisors ashore,
Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry ordered PCFs 94 and 23 further up
river to suppress enemy sniper fire. After proceeding approximately
eight hundred yards, the boats again were taken under fire from a
heavily foliated area and B-40 rocket exploded close aboard PCF-94;
with utter disregard for his own safety and the enemy rockets, he
again ordered a charge on the enemy, beached his boat only ten feet
from the VC rocket position, and personally led a landing party ashore
in pursuit of the enemy. Upon sweeping the area an immediate search
uncovered an enemy rest and supply area which was destroyed. The
extraordinary daring and personal courage of Lieutenant (junior grade)
Kerry in attacking a numerically superior force in the face of intense
fire were responsible for the highly successful mission. His actions
were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval
Service.

March 13, 1969 For heroic achievement while serving with Coastal
Division ELEVEN engaged in armed conflict with Viet Cong communist
aggressors in An Xuyen Province, Republic of Vietnam, on 13 March
1969. Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry was serving as Officer in Charge
of Patrol Craft Fast 94, one of five boats conducting a SEA Lords
operation in the Bay Hap River. While exiting the river, a mine
detonated under another Inshore Patrol Craft and almost
simultaneously, another mine detonated wounding Lieutenant (junior
grade) Kerry in the right arm. In addition, all units began receiving
small arms and automatic weapons fire from the river banks. When
Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry discovered he had a man overboard, he
returned upriver to assist. The man in the water was receiving sniper
fire from both banks. Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry directed his
gunners to provide suppressing fire, while from an exposed position on
the bow, his arm bleeding and in pain and with disregard for his
safety, he pulled the man aboard. Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry then
directed his boat to return and assist the other damaged boat to
safety. Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry's calmness, professionalism
and great personal courage under fire were in keeping with the highest
traditions of the United States Naval Service. Lieutenant (junior
grade) Kerry is authorized to wear the Combat "V".

March 17, 1969 The policy of Coastal Squadron One, the swift boat
command, was to send home any individual who is wounded three times in
action. After sustaining his third wound from enemy action n Vietnam,
Kerry was granted relief under this policy.

Early April, 1969 Kerry departs Vietnam

April 11, 1969 Kerry reports for duty at the Military Sea
Transportation Service, U.S. Atlantic Fleet in Brooklyn, NY.

January 1, 1970 Kerry promoted to (full) Lieutenant

January 3, 1970 Kerry requests discharge

March 1, 1970 Kerry's date of separation from Active Duty

April 29, 1970 Kerry listed as Registrant who has completed service

[Source: Boston Globe, "John Kerry, the Making of a Candidate",
6/15/03-6/21/03; Tour of Duty by Douglas Brinkley, Published by
William Morrow 2003; Selective Service System, National Headquarter]

Dad warns Kerry on flying

Kerry initially thought about enlisting as a pilot. But his father,
Richard Kerry - a test pilot who served in the Army Air Corps - warned
him that if he flew in combat, he might lose his love of flying. So
Kerry, who sought in so many ways to emulate John Fitzgerald Kennedy,
took to the water, just as his idol served on a World War II patrol
boat, the 109.

Gridley shipmate signs in "You had to be a bit of a cowboy to want a
Swift," said David Simons, a Gridley crewmate quoted in Brinkley's
book. "It meant that you were willing to get shot up all the time."

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/elections/sns-2004election-kerryprofile,0,53345.story?coll=bal-election-storyutil
In interviews and e-mails, six Gridley shipmates recall Kerry as
unpretentious and unafraid of engine grease, rain or rough seas. He
issued loudspeaker commands in what his captain called "a great radio
voice." The boatswains mates nicknamed him "The Beatle" because of his
bangs.

Kerry confided to his Gridley roommate, then-Lt. James R. Onorato,
that one day he hoped to lead the nation. "He said his primary goal
was to be a senator and then go for the big shot, the presidency,"
Onorato said. "He wanted to be top dog."

Standing midnight watch over the moonlit waves, Kerry debated the war
with radioman Philip W. Carter -- who says he was then a "jaded"
sailor midway through his third tour. "We had different attitudes,"
Carter says today. "He was an eager-beaver young officer."Kerry's
superiors rated him one of the gunboat's most effective officers. In
1968, following the example of his hero, President Kennedy, he
volunteered to skipper one of the 50-foot-long Navy "SWIFT boats" then
patrolling the Vietnam coast.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A36917-2004Mar6?language=printer
on communicating with his em second.

"Kerry, then 25, captained a patrol boat on the Mekong Delta. One day,
after taking fire from the Vietcong and after the boat's windows had
been blown out by a rocket, Kerry spotted a guerrilla along the shore
aiming a B-40 rocket launcher at his boat. Navy training prescribed an
immediate retreat. But in a rush of adrenaline, Kerry made a snap
decision. Impulsively, he beached the boat, jumped off and shot the
guerrilla.

It makes a great story. Except that's not quite how it happened.

"It was completely planned," said Del Sandusky, Kerry's
second-in-command. "He had a number of different scenarios. This was
all in his head."

From the day Kerry boarded, Sandusky, a veteran helmsman, noticed
something different about his commander.

"Most of the boat officers, they figured they knew what they needed to
know. John was not like that. He was not above asking questions,"
Sandusky said. "He pumped me for information. He asked me about ambush
sites, what to look for on the river."

The two men sat at the stern in their jungle greens, swatting
mosquitoes and breathing diesel fumes, as Sandusky shared the Mekong's
secrets. Two or three times a day, snipers shot at the boat. They
couldn't see the gunmen in the brush.

"I could hear a clak-clak, and I knew it was an AK-47. I began to
distinguish which weapon I was dealing with," Kerry said in an
interview. "I was very frustrated. I began to think about how we could
win."

Sandusky: "We'd talk about contingencies. He never said he was going
to beach the boat. He just . . . asked questions."

http://kerry2004.meetup.com/members/604
Viet Nam Vet; Went through Officer Candidate School with John
receiving our commissions together in Dec '66. Bay Area res. for over
30 yrs working in logistics in Silicon Valley. ex-reg. Republican
totally disenchanted with current administration....

D. Spencer Hines

2004-03-07 10:21:00 UTC

Yep...

Kerry wanted it both ways.

He wanted to be a War Hero AND an "Anti-War Activist" [mind you, just
against our side of the war, not against Ho Chi Minh's and his comrades'
side.]

The Kerry Medals are concrete evidence for this. Kerry wanted to
display them on his office glory wall so visitors could see them but he
also wanted to throw them away as a sign of public protest.

But that was impossible.

So he threw ANOTHER GUY'S medals away and kept his own.

Two-faced all the way.

DSH

"Olivers" <***@LOSETHIScalpha.com> wrote in message news:***@216.196.97.132...

| In Texas, it sure didn't take "family connections". One of my
brothers in
| law enlisted in the local unit of the ArmyNG in 1968. The price....a
| willingness to go the Jump School. As an old Air Intercept
Controller,
| having lost friends whom I had controlled to accident and
misadventure, I
| certainly never considered the flight training sysllabus and peace
time ops
| driving what in the late 60s were birds which flew with minimal
margins of
| safety and unforgiving characteristics asa piece of cake....

| I've no problem with Kerry's service in theater, his gallantry and
luck.
| On the other hand, his remarks of blanket condemnation of the actions
of
| those with whom he served remain idelible, absolute disqualifiers for
the
| office he seeks. Had he wanted to accuse individuals or describe
specific
| acts which he believed to be contrary to custom and the Laws of War,
his
| stance would have provided him with some credibility, then and now.
But
| his words at the time remain indelible and uneraseable. That was you
he
| was calling a war criminal....That was you he was accusing.
|
| Now, having shit in our collective mess kits, he wants us to forget
the
| occasions upon which he chose to humiliate men and women certainly as
brave
| and honorable as he. A better man than he, George McGovern, never
resorted
| to that sleazy, dishonorable and disqualifying a tactic.
|
| TMO

William Black

2004-03-07 21:10:20 UTC

Post by D. Spencer Hines
He wanted to be a War Hero AND an "Anti-War Activist"

He seems to have been both.

The citation for his Silver Star is on the web somewhere, I've read it.

After he came home he went into politics and obviously had a conscience
about the ghastly war he got caught up in.

You didn't, therefore no political career for you David...

The most interesting thing about the whole Vietnam issue and the presidency
is that neither party can produce anyone who served a whole tour 'in
country' who is sane enough to put up as a realistic candidate.

Everyone who spent a full year there seems to be bonkers in some way...

--
William Black
------------------
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government

Fred J. McCall

2004-03-08 00:06:21 UTC

"William Black" <***@hotmail.com> wrote:

:Everyone who spent a full year there seems to be bonkers in some way...

So what's YOUR excuse?

[This is a hell of a remark to make with regard to millions of people.
Mr Black must be practicing for the John F. Kerry "They're all war
criminals committing attrocities" award.]

--
"I thought dying for your country was the worst thing that could
happen to you. I think killing for your country can be a lot
worse. Because that's the memory that haunts."
-- Senator Bob Kerrey

D. Spencer Hines

2004-03-05 08:48:46 UTC

Do you have some more facts on this?

Perhaps a website?

I'm curious about those "three wounds" too ---- many of us are.

Hanoi John was only in country four months as I understand it.

DSH

"Kevin Brooks" <***@notyahoo.com> wrote in message news:***@adelphia.com...

[...]

| Yes, I do, Because he knew about the little used "three wounds and
| you're on your way home" policy the Navy had...which might explain
| those two curious "wounds" with no lost duty days....

Olivers

2004-03-05 15:24:34 UTC

Bill Case muttered....

Post by Bill Case
I don't know how or why Kerry left VN on his second tour and I doubt
that you do either. Whatever, his record and decorations beat using
family connections to shirk war duty like Bush did. A lot of people
who served and fought over there came away with conflicted feelings
about it.

What second tour?

He completed less than half of his only tour...

....and then was separated at his request from active duty almost 2 years
ahead of his contracted commitment (a favor few of us would have requested
and almost none have received).

Yeah, conflicted feelings are shared, but not so much that I would have
condemned those who served there as jointly and severally guilty of gross
atrocities.

TMO

Jack Linthicum

2004-03-05 21:04:59 UTC

Post by Olivers
Bill Case muttered....

What second tour?
He completed less than half of his only tour...
....and then was separated at his request from active duty almost 2 years
ahead of his contracted commitment (a favor few of us would have requested
and almost none have received).
Yeah, conflicted feelings are shared, but not so much that I would have
condemned those who served there as jointly and severally guilty of gross
atrocities.

The following is a resume of Kerry's Navy time, less the fact that he
is listed as being in the reserves from 1972-8. Did the obligation
change between 1959 and 1966? I went to OCS in March of 1959 and could
have gotten out in 1962. I stayed in for language school and ended out
in July 1965. Six years, which was the service obligation for OCS at
that time, 3 active 3 reserve. The 'Lieutenant' promotion is really
Ltjg. The biography takes all of his time almost day by day. The four
months he spent is probably average for post 1964 service. The Army
was hustling officers through in five months to get their ticket
punched, one source of the enlisted resentment, as I hear.

The last bit about running for congress is not a plus mark, but I
spent my last day in service harassing the people checking me out
because Johnson was supposed to make a speech on Vietnam that night.
We all, all, knew that was not good for 1615 Lieutenants so I got what
I would call special treatment. One look at the papers, initial and
send me off to the next spot.

John Kerry

February 18, 1966:
A senior at Yale, Kerry commits to enlist in the Navy.

December, 1967:
Kerry is assigned as an Ensign to the guided-missile frigate USS
Gridley. After five-months aboard, he returns to San Diego to undergo
training to command a Swift boat, used by the Navy for patrols in
Vietnam.

June, 1968:
Kerry is promoted to Lieutenant. [actually Ltjg]

November 17, 1968:
Kerry arrives in Vietnam, where he is given command of Swift boat No.
44, operating in the Mekong Delta.

December 2, 1968:
Kerry gets his first taste of intense combat, and is wounded in the
arm. He is awarded a Purple Heart.

January, 1969:
Kerry takes command of a new Swift boat, completing 18 missions over
48 days, almost all in the Mekong Delta area.

February 20, 1969:
Kerry is wounded again, taking shrapnel in the left thigh, after a
gunboat battle. He is awarded a second Purple Heart.

February 28, 1969:
Kerry and his boat crew, coming under attack while patroling in the
Mekong Delta, decide to counterattack. In the middle of the ensuing
firefight, Kerry leaves his boat, pursues a Viet Cong fighter into a
small hut, kills him, and retreives a rocket launcher. He is awarded a
Silver Star.

March 13, 1969:
A mine detonates near Kerry's boat, wounding him in the right arm. He
is awarded a third Purple Heart. He is also awarded a Bronze Star for
pulling a crew member, who had fallen overboard, back on the boat
amidst a firefight.

April, 1969:
According to Navy rules, sailors that have been wounded three times in
combat are eligible to be transfered to the U.S. for noncombat duty.
Kerry is transferred to desk duty in Brooklyn, NY.

January 3, 1970:
Kerry requests that he be discharged early from the Navy so that he
can run for Congress in Massachusetts' Third District. The request is
granted, and Kerry begins his first political campaign.

February 1970:
Kerry drops his bid for the Democratic nomination and supports Robert
F. Drinan. Drinan, a staunch opponent of the war, wins the race and
goes on to serve in Congress for ten years.

Olivers

2004-03-07 02:29:47 UTC

Jack Linthicum muttered....

some good for the record stuff snipped....

Post by Jack Linthicum
Kerry drops his bid for the Democratic nomination and supports Robert
F. Drinan. Drinan, a staunch opponent of the war, wins the race and
goes on to serve in Congress for ten years.

That's a roughly 10-11 month early out (depending on his DoR as an ensign,
achieved after 4 mos. at Newport).....

Did folks, many or few, wangle 11 month early outs in 1970?

I knew one, returning to start a PhD in Middle Eastern studies. An early
out at his age to "run for Congress" would have taken a rabbi with lots of
pull, likely political, at BUPERS, because seeking office was not on the
list or good cause for an early out. The Silver Star woiuldn't have helped
that much, but the three PHs would have. In 1970, the fleet remained short
of line officers and conventionally he could have been short toured with a
shore duty or training command "twilight cruise", most likely at DAGO
training new boys for the Riverine community. Obviously, he had already
pissed down somebody's leg while telling them it was raining.

Interestingly, the early relief from his first sea tour could have only
been accomplished by actually "volunteering" formally for duty with
Riverine or similar forces.

Another question immediately arises...His original orders to GRIDLEY, with
no service school after OCS, bespeak of some confusion already existing in
his career path....a potentially deployed DLG was a good set of orders for
a new Boot Ensign, but no school meant he was going to the deck force as an
extra hand, his only hope of shining asa watch stander. I'd sure like to
see his old JO's pocket notebook and a set of the GRIDLEY's watch bills and
deck logs.

Personally, I still await the straight skinny from the officers who served
with him. That he took care of and performed well in the eyes of his
(small) crew is a plus. but it seems curious that none of his wardroom
mates seem quick of the mark with endorsements, glowing or otherwise.
Jesus, I'd hate to think who would come forward were I seeking state or
national audience. I can think of one small town newspaper editor who
would literally cause the printers' ink to smoke on his pages (and in some
otther newspapers). One or two might give me passing marks, but there's
this wizened old LCDR I f*cked over one evening on the Bridge...

TMO

D. Spencer Hines

2004-03-06 16:55:09 UTC

Good Post....

You were a destroyer officer?

DSH

"Olivers" <***@LOSETHIScalpha.com> wrote in message news:***@216.196.97.132...

| Jack Linthicum muttered....
|
|
| some good for the record stuff snipped....
|
| > February 1970:
| > Kerry drops his bid for the Democratic nomination and supports
Robert
| > F. Drinan. Drinan, a staunch opponent of the war, wins the race and
| > goes on to serve in Congress for ten years.
| >
|
| That's a roughly 10-11 month early out (depending on his DoR as an
ensign,
| achieved after 4 mos. at Newport).....
|
| Did folks, many or few, wangle 11 month early outs in 1970?
|
| I knew one, returning to start a PhD in Middle Eastern studies. An
early
| out at his age to "run for Congress" would have taken a rabbi with
lots of
| pull, likely political, at BUPERS, because seeking office was not on
the
| list or good cause for an early out. The Silver Star woiuldn't have
helped
| that much, but the three PHs would have. In 1970, the fleet remained
short
| of line officers and conventionally he could have been short toured
with a
| shore duty or training command "twilight cruise", most likely at DAGO
| training new boys for the Riverine community. Obviously, he had
already
| pissed down somebody's leg while telling them it was raining.
|
| Interestingly, the early relief from his first sea tour could have
only
| been accomplished by actually "volunteering" formally for duty with
| Riverine or similar forces.
|
| Another question immediately arises...His original orders to GRIDLEY,
with
| no service school after OCS, bespeak of some confusion already
existing in
| his career path....a potentially deployed DLG was a good set of orders
for
| a new Boot Ensign, but no school meant he was going to the deck force
as an
| extra hand, his only hope of shining asa watch stander. I'd sure like
to
| see his old JO's pocket notebook and a set of the GRIDLEY's watch
bills and
| deck logs.
|
|
| Personally, I still await the straight skinny from the officers who
served
| with him. That he took care of and performed well in the eyes of his
| (small) crew is a plus. but it seems curious that none of his wardroom
| mates seem quick of the mark with endorsements, glowing or otherwise.
| Jesus, I'd hate to think who would come forward were I seeking state
or
| national audience. I can think of one small town newspaper editor who
| would literally cause the printers' ink to smoke on his pages (and in
some
| otther newspapers). One or two might give me passing marks, but
there's
| this wizened old LCDR I f*cked over one evening on the Bridge...
|
| TMO

D. Spencer Hines

2004-03-05 06:50:32 UTC

Bingo!

Those medals he pretended to throw away are now prominently displayed on
his Senate office wall.

The man is a fraud through and through.

DSH

"Kevin Brooks" <***@notyahoo.com> wrote in message news:jOednbNsV4DKnNXdRVn-***@adelphia.com...

[...]

| Depends on how you read it. Using a loophole so he could DEROS after
what,
| four months? And return stateside so he could immediately start
accusing his
| fellow servicemembers of various assorted crimes and atrocities
(second hand
| info, of course, gained from attending the Winter Soldier event that
ol' Ms.
| Fonda hosted). And toss his medals away in protest...oops! That's
right, NOW
| he says they were "somebody else's medals"... it is oh-so-neat now for
him
| to display them, huh?...

chebs

2004-03-05 21:23:15 UTC

Post by D. Spencer Hines
Bingo!
Those medals he pretended to throw away are now prominently displayed on
his Senate office wall.

This is a part of the Kerry Vietnam equation that really bothers me. If
indeed he had the same courage of conviction about how he felt about the
war after he came home as he is painting himself as having courage under
fire in Vietnam, why does he now say they weren't his medals? Which
leads to the question.......... Whose medals were they and why did he
have so little respect for another Vietnam Veteran's service record that
he would callously throw these medals away? Could the medals perhaps
belonged to a W.W.II veteran? After all, during the Clinton vs. Bush one
and Dole presidential campaigns, Kerry was against using Clinton's lack
of service as a campaign issue (I would say that Clinton was a shirker,
but I don't want to start that argument all over again.) when Clinton
was campaigning against two W.W.II veterans. So you can readily infer
that he equates the actions Bill Clinton took during the Vietnam time
frame as an honorable alternative to combat service in Vietnam and in
his mind no less honorable than combat service during W.W.II.
kwc

D. Spencer Hines

2004-03-05 15:02:14 UTC

Yep....

You broke the code.

Excellent Questions All ---- That Need To Be Answered.

DSH

"chebs" <***@verizon.net> wrote in message news:***@verizon.net...
|
|
| D. Spencer Hines wrote:
|
| >Bingo!
| >
| >Those medals he pretended to throw away are now prominently displayed
on
| >his Senate office wall.
| >
|
| This is a part of the Kerry Vietnam equation that really bothers me.
If
| indeed he had the same courage of conviction about how he felt about
the
| war after he came home as he is painting himself as having courage
under
| fire in Vietnam, why does he now say they weren't his medals? Which
| leads to the question.......... Whose medals were they and why did he
| have so little respect for another Vietnam Veteran's service record
that
| he would callously throw these medals away? Could the medals perhaps
| belonged to a W.W.II veteran? After all, during the Clinton vs. Bush
one
| and Dole presidential campaigns, Kerry was against using Clinton's
lack
| of service as a campaign issue (I would say that Clinton was a
shirker,
| but I don't want to start that argument all over again.) when Clinton
| was campaigning against two W.W.II veterans. So you can readily infer
| that he equates the actions Bill Clinton took during the Vietnam time
| frame as an honorable alternative to combat service in Vietnam and in
| his mind no less honorable than combat service during W.W.II.
| kwc

Xeno

2004-03-06 01:06:38 UTC

Post by Kevin Brooks
Which Kerry twice tried to dramatically cut. Yeah, that is one hell of an

Post by Kevin Brooks
ace security expert you are supporting there, huh? You are gonna hammer

Bush

Post by Kevin Brooks
for failing to turn around in eight months an intel system he inherited

from

Post by Kevin Brooks
his predecessor, but you are gonna bend over backwards to make excuses

for

Post by Kevin Brooks
why ol' JFK II's efforts to gut samesaid agenciea was *really* the thing

Post by Kevin Brooks
do... Did you forget to take your logic pill this morning, or what?

Try your weak crap on somebody else, little fellow.

Given the obvious difficulties you are having with simple concepts, "weak
crap" is all that is required.

Post by Kevin Brooks
The US's problem in security isn't that it spends too little. It has an

over

Post by Kevin Brooks
bureaucratized system with no street smarts. That's why it couldn't

respond

In war shit happens.

Sure sport. Just so long as it's not your little candyass hanging out
there, right? Just like Prez no-show.

Intel is more of an art than a science. How many AQ

Post by Kevin Brooks
attacks against American targets did your little buddy Clinton endure,
without catching on? Was it four, or five? Took Bush one.

Post by Kevin Brooks
You harp on Kerry "wanting to gut the CIA" etc. It's just phony right wing
bullshit, like most of the crap in your replies.

No, it is a matter of public record that he did so. Twice. Even his fellow
senators would not join him--not a one.

Post by Kevin Brooks
Kerry has at least two solid things going for in comparison to Bush.

First,

Post by Kevin Brooks
he had the character not to shirk combat when his country was at war.

He had the balls to go to Nam, and then to say what he thought of it.
Nothing wrong with that.

Xeno

Kevin Brooks

2004-03-06 02:47:24 UTC

Post by Xeno

Post by Kevin Brooks
Which Kerry twice tried to dramatically cut. Yeah, that is one hell of an

Post by Kevin Brooks
ace security expert you are supporting there, huh? You are gonna hammer

Bush

Post by Kevin Brooks
for failing to turn around in eight months an intel system he inherited

from

Post by Kevin Brooks
his predecessor, but you are gonna bend over backwards to make excuses

for

Post by Kevin Brooks
why ol' JFK II's efforts to gut samesaid agenciea was *really* the thing

Post by Kevin Brooks
do... Did you forget to take your logic pill this morning, or what?

Try your weak crap on somebody else, little fellow.

Given the obvious difficulties you are having with simple concepts, "weak
crap" is all that is required.

Post by Kevin Brooks
The US's problem in security isn't that it spends too little. It has an

over

Post by Kevin Brooks
bureaucratized system with no street smarts. That's why it couldn't

respond

In war shit happens.

Sure sport. Just so long as it's not your little candyass hanging out
there, right? Just like Prez no-show.

Hey, "sport", I have spent plenty of time with my "candyass" in the
ready-to-be-hung-out mode; how about you, "sport"?

Post by Xeno
Intel is more of an art than a science. How many AQ

Post by Kevin Brooks
attacks against American targets did your little buddy Clinton endure,
without catching on? Was it four, or five? Took Bush one.

Post by Kevin Brooks
You harp on Kerry "wanting to gut the CIA" etc. It's just phony right wing
bullshit, like most of the crap in your replies.

No, it is a matter of public record that he did so. Twice. Even his fellow
senators would not join him--not a one.

Post by Kevin Brooks
Kerry has at least two solid things going for in comparison to Bush.

First,

Post by Kevin Brooks
he had the character not to shirk combat when his country was at war.

He had the balls to go to Nam, and then to say what he thought of it.
Nothing wrong with that.

No, he went quite beyond that, testifying before Congress regarding alleged
atrocities (which knowledge he picked up second hand at the laughable Winter
Soldier Investigation) and labeling his fellow servicemembers as "war
criminals". A lot of them have not forgotten that. OK, "sport"?

Brooks

Post by Xeno
Xeno

D. Spencer Hines

2004-03-05 17:18:13 UTC

Damned right they have not forgotten what "Hanoi John" Kerry did and
said.

And those veterans will be heard from during this campaign.

Kerry and his minions have opened Pandora's box on the Vietnam War and
it will be open for quite some time to come.

They will live to regret that decision.

Kerry Should Stand By For Heavy Rolls....

Further, Kerry wants to cave and crater to Kim Jong Il's blackmail --
that is crystal clear -- breaking faith with all those who fought and
died for Freedom on the Korean Peninsula during the Korean War and
during the 50 years since.

Regime Changes in North Korea and Cuba should be top priority in
2005 ---- to be followed closely thereafter by Iran.

DSH

"Kevin Brooks" <***@notyahoo.com> wrote in message news:QuudnZYoweEnptTdRVn-***@adelphia.com...

| No, he went quite beyond that, testifying before Congress regarding
| alleged atrocities (which knowledge he picked up second hand at
| the laughable Winter Soldier Investigation) and labeling his fellow
| servicemembers as "war criminals". A lot of them have not
| forgotten that. OK, "sport"?
|
| Brooks

Paul J. Adam

2004-03-07 19:20:40 UTC

Post by Kevin Brooks
Sure he does. Unlike his predecessor, who had the opportunity to get OBL and
didn't,

Whatever Clinton did was dismissed as "Wag the Dog" distraction from
domestic trouble. He was criticised as using OBL as a distraction when
it was "merely" a TLAM strike: just what would he have been accused of
if he'd kicked off invading Afghanistan in the midst of Monicagate?

(And why would he have been any more successful in seizing bin-Laden
than the current incumbent has been to date?)

Post by Kevin Brooks
he has proved to be willing to address the problem head on.

If al-Qaeda is the problem, Iraq is not the answer.

Post by Kevin Brooks
He is, so stop your whining. Eight months...versus eight years that nothing
was done about OBL, or airline security, or improving the capabilities of
the intel agencies.

And twelve years before that, and four years before *that*, and so on ad
infinitum.

That's the problem with democracies... short attention spans.

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBox<at>jrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

Jack Linthicum

2004-03-07 22:37:29 UTC

Post by Paul J. Adam

Post by Kevin Brooks
Sure he does. Unlike his predecessor, who had the opportunity to get OBL and
didn't,

Whatever Clinton did was dismissed as "Wag the Dog" distraction from
domestic trouble. He was criticised as using OBL as a distraction when
it was "merely" a TLAM strike: just what would he have been accused of
if he'd kicked off invading Afghanistan in the midst of Monicagate?
(And why would he have been any more successful in seizing bin-Laden
than the current incumbent has been to date?)

One of the rules of the game: they seek you hide. If they seek before
you realize it's time to hide....

ZZBunker

2004-03-04 20:19:53 UTC

But we knew that, before we even invented Airports,
Skyscapers, and banks as we always tell Los Angelos.
If you put armed guards every 10 feet along
a road then everything is safe. And then we don't
even need to waste our tax money on police,
nevermind idiots such as Boston Lawyers.

Post by Bill Case
There was also plenty of warning that something like that might
happen in terms of past highjackings and suicide bombings, intelligence buzz
etc.

But we also knew that. *Before* we even invented
the "nation" called Israel. Since neither Arabs
nor Jews invented suicide attacks. The Japanese sorta
gave a memorable lesson in suicide attacks that even idiots
like Elvis, Moses & Boeing Inc. will probably never forget.

ZZBunker

2004-03-05 00:12:43 UTC

Post by Bill Case
What the hell is wrong with you?
The Sep. 11 attacks were easily avoidable through better airplane
security (locked secure cockpit doors, at least one pilot armed with a
handgun, armed air marshals on flights, etc).
There was also plenty of warning that something like that might
happen in terms of past highjackings and suicide bombings, intelligence buzz
etc.
The US security / intelligence agencies probably could have detected
and disrupted the plot if it wasn't for such bad management and info
sharing.

They probably could have.

But who funds info sharing?
Congress.
Who funds the intelligence agencies?
Congress.
Who runs Congress?
The Republicans.
Who runs the Republicans?
Boeing.
Who runs Boeing?
The Air Force.
Who runs the Air Force?
NASA.
Who runs NASA.
Bush & Bush Inc.

Fred J. McCall

2004-03-05 01:59:35 UTC